Is feminism still needed in the U.S.

[I.S.L.A.M617]

if I am understanding you correctly, you are essentially saying "sex sells" is that correct?

Most definitely

Why do you think sex sells so well, and is this the case with baby sitting and education too?

Honestly, I couldn't tell you why it works so well, just that it does. The whole "give me money for the suggestion that we might have sex, but we both know that's not gonna happen" thing doesn't really work on me.

As for your second question, I'd say babysitting and education are more of a gender role thing. Women give birth to children, so we naturally believe a woman would be better at taking care of them and/or teaching them.

 

[Volodya]

why do you think it is easier for women to get these jobs?

Because sex sells.

It's still discrimination though.

 

[Volodya]

Why do you think sex sells so well, and is this the case with baby sitting and education too?

It's the same with education, yes - young teenage boys love having a good looking female teacher, same with girls too.

I know this for a fact, being an ex-teacher myself.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

ok, she has achieved this - what else needs to be done now?

A lot. This is simply an act of Congress that must be enforced now. There is still discrimination throughout the workforce. I was fired from a job specifically because I was pregnant. My mother used to train people at her job and saw over 25 years of repeatedly watching the males being passed over her and other females for management positions. Same with at least half of her friends. The statistical analysis from labor demographics line up with many anecdotes from me and many of my colleagues and friends.

What needs to be done now is to look at this differently, especially given your posts on the matter that suggest that being young and attractive as a waittress is enough of an indicator to show that women have privileges that men don't. Which is unpersuasive given that women are not always young, not always attractive, and not always wanting to go into the service industry (women like more options like men want more options). Too many people see this issue with a very simplistic anecdotal confirmation bias. They see women making money, they see equality. They see women in a few political offices, they see equality. I remember when Sandra Day O'Connor was appointed to the SCOTUS, and many people felt like that should be enough and feminists need to stop pushing. (We heard people complaining that women are trying to take over the world and have female privileges if more than one woman was on the Supreme Court, which I find a very silly argument).

Finally, what needs to be done is to make sure the law is enforced. The labor industry is not allowed to discriminate based on gender.

 

[Question_love_act]

It's not true that feminists don't care about men being discriminated in the job market, SOME feminists do. It depends on the definition and mission of feminism they have.

Some feminists - especially in the third wave - fight for the end of the gender bias system. This system affects men, women and also people who don't identify within the gender binary. Basically: everyone.

That gender system is what conditions men to be perceived as more "able" and autonomous than women. That's why it's not well perceived when men work as secretaries, primary school teacher, nurse and other perceived "women's" job. I read a study for a research paper on the subject. Unfortunately I did not keep the article (d***!) because I did not think I could no longer access them after finishing my studies... But here's the abstract :

"Occupational segregation by sex remains the most pervasive aspect of the labour market. In the past, most research on this topic has concentrated on explanations of women’s segregation into low paid and low status occupations, or investigations of women who have crossed gender boundaries into men’s jobs, and the potential impact on them and the occupations. In contrast, this article reports on a small-scale, qualitative study of ten men who have crossed into what are generally defined as ‘women’s jobs’. In doing so, one of the impacts on them has been that they have experienced challenges to their masculine identity from various sources and in a variety of ways. The men’s reactions to these challenges, and their strategies for developing and accommodating their masculinity in light of these challenges, are illuminating. They either attempted to maintain a traditional masculinity by distancing themselves from female colleagues, and/or partially (re)constructed a different masculinity by identifying with their non-traditional occupations. This they did as often as they deemed necessary as a response to different forms of challenge to their gender identities from both men and women. Finally, the article argues that these responses work to maintain the men as the dominant gender, even in these traditionally defined ‘women’s jobs’." (Cross and Bagilhole, 2002)

From what I remember about the article, men in such occupations would rather say they were "medical assistant" than "nurse" or say "I work at the library" rather than "I'm a receptionist".

So that's how the gender system affects men into pressuring them to find a "better" job than women and it's so it's a burden who a man who has chosen a dominant female job. These burdens can stop once we stop believing that genders are opposites and completely different. In other words, fight the gender assumptions!

 

[Me Myself]

Yes, there is an average fifteen percent wage gap even after ensuring that exactly the same jobs and hours are being compared.

Source?

 

[Me Myself]

A lot. This is simply an act of Congress that must be enforced now. There is still discrimination throughout the workforce. I was fired from a job specifically because I was pregnant.

Did you sue them?

 

[Alceste]

Source?

Already delivered in previous debates with you. Try google scholar.

 

[Me Myself]

Already delivered in previous debates with you. Try google scholar.

I checked it and it didnt account all the relevant variables, that`s why I am asking for one that does

When we watched one that did, the wage gap was a lot lower. Around 8%.

Granted, it was on a specific job, but it was the only one that did seem to take into account all the relevant variables.

Thanks for such source BTW, cause I was looking for them and I didn`t find anything

I have never been awfully good at searching.

 

[StarryNightshade]

Perhaps it's Humanism that's needed?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Did you sue them?

No money for a retainer fee for an attorney. I was poor, and nobody would represent me pro bono.

So, no. I didn't sue them. But I remember their words exactly when they let me go..."We can't have a pregnant woman working here." Hence, I just don't know what to think when people say that sex discrimination doesn't happen at work, because there I was hearing it and seeing it in person. It was surreal and maddening.

There was no ifs, ands, or buts about it. I heard the exact same argument against sex discrimination in the workplace back then, too. And that it was all about a woman's choices, that women were taking more time off because of kids, because of women's lack of negotiating with bosses for a raise or for entry salary, that the wage gap doesn't exist like feminists say it does, etc. But I discovered I wasn't the only one who was discriminated against because of my pregnancy (other pregnant women have told similar stories, too).

 

[Me Myself]

No money for a retainer fee for an attorney. I was poor, and nobody would represent me pro bono.

So, no. I didn't sue them. But I remember their words exactly when they let me go..."We can't have a pregnant woman working here." Hence, I just don't know what to think when people say that sex discrimination doesn't happen at work, because there I was hearing it and seeing it in person. It was surreal and maddening.

There was no ifs, ands, or buts about it. I heard the exact same argument against sex discrimination in the workplace back then, too. And that it was all about a woman's choices, that women were taking more time off because of kids, because of women's lack of negotiating with bosses for a raise or for entry salary, that the wage gap doesn't exist like feminists say it does, etc. But I discovered I wasn't the only one who was discriminated against because of my pregnancy (other pregnant women have told similar stories, too).

I assume some discrimination still happens, I would be interested in having a reasonable way of determining where and how (and how much).

I think one way of lowering this would be making parental leaves (for both father and mother) MANDATORY. That way the man CANNOT decide to take less of it (which is part of the reason there is still a discrimination against women instead of men. Statistically, they would take more days of their parental leaves)

Then again, I am not sure if they are already mandatory.

 

[dust1n]

All I asked you was if there really is wealth inequality. Now is there or not. I've never seen a girl talk about getting paid less than a guy. You know why? Because it's never happened.

Now, do women get paid less than a man for the same job and the same amount of hours or no? Or I'm just going to assume I'm right.

:biglaugh: Assuming one is right is probably the best way of going about it.

 

[dust1n]

Race and socioeconomics matter a lot more. White women have way more power than colored men and women today. Even I have always gotten racially profiled when flying or crossing a border cuz of my name and ethnic background. My friend who's black was cuffed for no reason as a medical student. Ferminism is a cute term for college ideologues but in the real world it's not applicable anymore.

Wouldn't it be applicable to... uh... women of color or of low socioeconomic status then?

 

[Me Myself]

Wouldn't it be applicable to... uh... women of color or of low socioeconomic status then?

I think what he is saying is that the being of color and the being of low socioeconomic part are the parts which most sustancially problem them.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Who says "colored" anymore?

 

[dust1n]

Not specific studies, just a whole lot of life experience.

for instance, I've never worked a job where there have been dual wage rates - have you, and if so, where?

Men and women DO have equality in general - why do you think they don't?

Oh thank we got anecdotes. The best way to determine whether inequality exists is not to go to the mathematical models of wage distribution, but to your personal experiences?

By the way, do you know if there are any black swans on the planet?

 

[DallasApple]

So that's how the gender system affects men into pressuring them to find a "better" job than women and it's so it's a burden who a man who has chosen a dominant female job. These burdens can stop once we stop believing that genders are opposites and completely different. In other words, fight the gender assumptions!

I couldn't agree more.Including some men are better at than their wives as SAHP. And they enjoy it and find it fulfilling.But the stereotypes are alive and well that women are 'naturally" better at nurturing children and domestic duties.Including we are supposedly naturally loving more so than a man.Hes naturally more respectful than a woman.We are supposedly better "multi taskers" too.Its just a fact.

Its the same guys that claim feminist aren't really interested in equality that insist men and women are SOOOO innately different . To the extent in a nutshell we are "better at" nurturing children and all things domestic that COMPLAIN that women are more frequently awarded custody in family court! And the claim is "just because' she is a woman.

I'm like dudes PICK one! You cant have BOTH.Either women by NATURE are better at nurturing and naturally more loving which is what CHILDREN need or we aren't. Because if we ARE and the JUDGE's believe you why WOULDN'T women be getting custody more often?

They are shooting themselves in their own foot by insisting we are THAT different trying to protect their "masculinity".

I was recently lurking on a forum where the men (and some women) were in an uproar over some commercial.The "negative' stereotype.

It went something like this.The man was portrayed as a slovenly lazy husband burping and farting lying on the couch .(you know the stereotype). The wife of course was cleaning up and was perfectly put together .(I can remember the appliance) but then she plugged it in she had a fantasy.Her husband /taking care of their child/baking/ cleaning the house/painting the kitchen /Oh and lol paying the flute.

Here is what i noticed.Not just the men were ****** he was portrayed as a useless slob.One man took issue that the wife's "dream husband" was being portrayed as doing things "for her" to please her and not "admirable' things on top of that.

This same guy hates feminism .He believes the court systems are corrupted and discriminate against men in divorce and child custody.EXPECTS feminist to get on board in making the system more equal.But then there you have it.A husband taking care of HIS children /cleaning HIS house/ taking care of his house /cooking /(home making) was "for " his wife and not an admirable thing for a man to do?

Like they turned the man into a "woman" doing feminine things to make him a good husband and father.Stripping him of his "masculinity" I presume.

Balking at the slob stereotype (how DARE they portray a man like that!) then reinforcing another one!(raising kids and taking care of home is woman's work).

Doesn't that put a feminist between a rock and a hard place?As far as sympathizing ?Or what to do about it?

 

[Me Myself]

Who says "colored" anymore?

Not me, I just write it

 

[dust1n]

Much easier for an attractive young woman to get work as bar server, waitress, receptionist, air hostess etc..

Much easier!

Boy, I sure hope all this male discrimination stops so I can finally start my career in serving people or acting as their assistant.