Is feminism still needed in the U.S.

[Me Myself]

You just hatin atheistic cuisine

 

[DallasApple]

I'm glad to see you back! I haven't got a fist bump since 2009!

Well ! And I don't TEXT either! So call me sometime and if I don't pick up leave a message on my answering machine or I wont call you back!

 

[Revoltingest]

Well look at that!!! dinner in RUINED! Guess we will have to order take out.

Ooooo! Ooooo! Shish kafta, kebab, kibbe, taboulie, falafel! I'll call Palm Palace.

 

[Curious George]

No money for a retainer fee for an attorney. I was poor, and nobody would represent me pro bono.

So, no. I didn't sue them. But I remember their words exactly when they let me go..."We can't have a pregnant woman working here." Hence, I just don't know what to think when people say that sex discrimination doesn't happen at work, because there I was hearing it and seeing it in person. It was surreal and maddening.

There was no ifs, ands, or buts about it. I heard the exact same argument against sex discrimination in the workplace back then, too. And that it was all about a woman's choices, that women were taking more time off because of kids, because of women's lack of negotiating with bosses for a raise or for entry salary, that the wage gap doesn't exist like feminists say it does, etc. But I discovered I wasn't the only one who was discriminated against because of my pregnancy (other pregnant women have told similar stories, too).

I am sorry to hear this. I do believe that the majority of discrimination cases fly under the radar because people often lack access to resources which are available. Had I known you I might have been able to help. In my mind, staying informed is one of our many responsibilities, hopefully you have since found resources so that when you meet a woman who is presently in the situation you were back then (because make no mistake this specific instance of discrimination still happens a lot) you sill be able to connect the woman to the right resources.

As far as the rationalization of the wage gap, there are many factors at play. If we trace these factors back to the source we will find a devaluation of the female gender. One instance you pointed out was the disparity between the genders (and races) with regard to negotiation for entry salaries. While this does not rationalize the wage gap, it adds another facet to the discussion. Similarly, the amount of time a mother takes off work to take care of family issues., while I have no statistics on this matter I would not be surprised to discover mothers take more time than fathers. but the question is why. We still live in a society wherein the family care and maintenance is not equally distributed. Kids get sick, or get into trouble, or need someone to bring them something. If both parents are working but the lions share of family responsibility falls on the mother guess which parent takes off work. Now, if this accounts for even a small portion of the wage gap, I do not see it as something to deny. Rather I see it as a social injustice that needs our focus. Do not mistake my intentions, a host of discriminatory practices still occur in the workplace such as passing women for promotion, pressuring women to leave, actually firing women because they are pregnant, dismissing ideas of women, sexual harassment, and the list goes on. However, when focusing explicitly on the wages will yield a much smaller list of women who have been discriminated against. Thankfully, we no longer live in a society where people think I can pay her less because she is a woman (not that this is completely gone, but in the majority of employers do not do this anymore). consequently, differences in wages come from more systemic issues and cultural biases such as steering girls away from sciences, how we reach our children to interview and accept jobs, the unequal distribution of family care and maintenance, the culture biases of male greatness, rationality and leadership, the devaluation of character traits that are psychologically considered feminine, the ignorance of law, the association with women and sexual harassment suits, the paranoia of sexual harassment suits and this list is very very far from exhaustive. My point is that when approached with statistics or studies about the wage gap and someone attempting to rationalize such, even their own rationalization points to gender biases. The fact that there is still a wage gap at all means that we need to address facets of our society beyond just the employer-employee relationship, given that there is legal recourse for an employer paying different wages based on sex alone. we need to address the facets of our society that allow this to happen. If we do this I imagine that wage gap will continue with its down tick again.

 

[DallasApple]

Ooooo! Ooooo! Shish kafta, kebab, kibbe, taboulie, falafel! I'll call Palm Palace.

And don't forget the baba ganoush !

 

[Revoltingest]

And don't forget the baba ganoush !

Oops! Yes, & the hummus too.

 

[Me Myself]

I agree that a more equal distribution of family labours would help with this, but this would be a subject I think would be better addressed with propaganda and social campaigns (and even TV character role models) than with any special legislation. All of this can be supported by feminist movements of course.

I remember the other day I was watching a chat I think it was on a show called "The Agenda" in which one feminist was talking about this with others. She said that even when the husband wants to try and take a bit more responsibility over house work, many time he (and she ) doesnt realise that while he may be doing some of the work, the female is still the one taking the emotional stress for it.

An example she gave was simple but enlightening. She asks her husband to do the shopping because she is exhausted. He asks for the list. Now what does this means? the husband will go and buy everything from the list, a list he did not do and of which he would not take responsibility for the omissions. Then there is also that women may be less willing to let the man do the job if they see he doesnt do it the way she likes it (many times this may mean just plain wrong and many times it may just mean not the way she likes it)

So there is social changes to be done there. I do would assume that in most households the woman takes most of the responsibility for the non payed job, and to change this, it could only happen with some new social conditioning. Naturally, this couldn`t be a legislation, but it does can be some other form of social approach.

Also the fact that she has more stress given her household chours is obviously going to affect her efficiency at her job, which would of course affect progress, pay etc.

One of the things taken into account for the "Happiness gap" in between men and women is this, there are too many expectations that women have over themselves.

By the same chat the feminist said she found it funny and related that women tend to have more "complex" views on happiness than men. By her own self admitedly unscientific "`poll" with the people she worked with, most women she asked if they were happy would really think about it and then give an elaborate answer of the total state of their lifes. The men just said "hum..Yeah, sure *looks at someone else* What you mean there is no report about...?"



edit: I think this was it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzFUmhlrQWQ

 

[Alceste]

I agree that a more equal distribution of family labours would help with this, but this would be a subject I think would be better addressed with propaganda and social campaigns (and even TV character role models) than with any special legislation. All of this can be supported by feminist movements of course.

I remember the other day I was watching a chat I think it was on a show called "The Agenda" in which one feminist was talking about this with others. She said that even when the husband wants to try and take a bit more responsibility over house work, many time he (and she ) doesnt realise that while he may be doing some of the work, the female is still the one taking the emotional stress for it.

An example she gave was simple but enlightening. She asks her husband to do the shopping because she is exhausted. He asks for the list. Now what does this means? the husband will go and buy everything from the list, a list he did not do and of which he would not take responsibility for the omissions. Then there is also that women may be less willing to let the man do the job if they see he doesnt do it the way she likes it (many times this may mean just plain wrong and many times it may just mean not the way she likes it)

So there is social changes to be done there. I do would assume that in most households the woman takes most of the responsibility for the non payed job, and to change this, it could only happen with some new social conditioning. Naturally, this couldn`t be a legislation, but it does can be some other form of social approach.

Also the fact that she has more stress given her household chours is obviously going to affect her efficiency at her job, which would of course affect progress, pay etc.

One of the things taken into account for the "Happiness gap" in between men and women is this, there are too many expectations that women have over themselves.

By the same chat the feminist said she found it funny and related that women tend to have more "complex" views on happiness than men. By her own self admitedly unscientific "`poll" with the people she worked with, most women she asked if they were happy would really think about it and then give an elaborate answer of the total state of their lifes. The men just said "hum..Yeah, sure *looks at someone else* What you mean there is no report about...?"



edit: I think this was it:

[youtube]AzFUmhlrQWQ[/youtube]
Your Agenda: Modern Woman Woes - YouTube

Yeah, you know, I've been the primary bread winner for a couple of years while my hubby works at home and makes his own schedule. Sometimes I let the bathroom go for a really long time, thinking "well, he uses it WAY more that I do - surely he'll get around to it." But he never does. Not once. Every single time, even though we share a lot of things, he just doesn't do anything he doesn't feel like doing, and he feels zero stress about it. It drives me absolutely mental, partly because our part of the house is usually a total disaster area, but also because I know the state of it really bothers my grandmother, and it's her house we live in. If I ask him to do something, he says "ok, sure" and then doesn't do it. Like, ever. If I remind him, I'm a nagging harpy. If I do it myself, he's mad because he said he'd do it and he thinks doing it myself is just trying to make him feel guilty. Really I don't give a **** how he "feels" about any of it. I just want the **** to get done. If you have to contemplate your "feelings" about cleaning a dirty toilet, that **** is never going to get cleaned.

/rant.

He just started a new job though, out of the house, so I feel way less stressed out now about money at least, if not being way behind on chores around the house. Which reminds me, I've got to go clean that ******* toilet.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I am sorry to hear this. I do believe that the majority of discrimination cases fly under the radar because people often lack access to resources which are available. Had I known you I might have been able to help. In my mind, staying informed is one of our many responsibilities, hopefully you have since found resources so that when you meet a woman who is presently in the situation you were back then (because make no mistake this specific instance of discrimination still happens a lot) you sill be able to connect the woman to the right resources.

Yes, I agree this discriminatory practice still happens a lot. If it isn't too much to ask, could you PM me any links and resources so I can point other pregnant women in the right directions for finding legal representation?

As far as the rationalization of the wage gap, there are many factors at play. If we trace these factors back to the source we will find a devaluation of the female gender. One instance you pointed out was the disparity between the genders (and races) with regard to negotiation for entry salaries. While this does not rationalize the wage gap, it adds another facet to the discussion. Similarly, the amount of time a mother takes off work to take care of family issues., while I have no statistics on this matter I would not be surprised to discover mothers take more time than fathers. but the question is why. We still live in a society wherein the family care and maintenance is not equally distributed. Kids get sick, or get into trouble, or need someone to bring them something. If both parents are working but the lions share of family responsibility falls on the mother guess which parent takes off work. Now, if this accounts for even a small portion of the wage gap, I do not see it as something to deny. Rather I see it as a social injustice that needs our focus. Do not mistake my intentions, a host of discriminatory practices still occur in the workplace such as passing women for promotion, pressuring women to leave, actually firing women because they are pregnant, dismissing ideas of women, sexual harassment, and the list goes on. However, when focusing explicitly on the wages will yield a much smaller list of women who have been discriminated against. Thankfully, we no longer live in a society where people think I can pay her less because she is a woman (not that this is completely gone, but in the majority of employers do not do this anymore). consequently, differences in wages come from more systemic issues and cultural biases such as steering girls away from sciences, how we reach our children to interview and accept jobs, the unequal distribution of family care and maintenance, the culture biases of male greatness, rationality and leadership, the devaluation of character traits that are psychologically considered feminine, the ignorance of law, the association with women and sexual harassment suits, the paranoia of sexual harassment suits and this list is very very far from exhaustive. My point is that when approached with statistics or studies about the wage gap and someone attempting to rationalize such, even their own rationalization points to gender biases. The fact that there is still a wage gap at all means that we need to address facets of our society beyond just the employer-employee relationship, given that there is legal recourse for an employer paying different wages based on sex alone. we need to address the facets of our society that allow this to happen. If we do this I imagine that wage gap will continue with its down tick again.

I have no argument with any of this. Well stated. :yes:

Part of the gender bias also hurts men in custody court cases when they wish to attain at least shared or joint custody of their children, but the kids' mother had been taking up the lions share of the child care during infancy, toddlerhood, and when the child is sick and needs to stay home. I suggest that addressing fathers spending more time away from work to pick up equal child care for kids when both parents work is a big step in the right direction. I also suggest with more mothers becoming the breadwinner that fathers stay at home so that if there is a split, he is considered more for sole custody rather than the mother because the kids naturally are more bonded with him if they're young.

I remember my mother and her generation during Second Wave were all major advocates of greater fathers involvement in their kids' lives. My mother used to cringe when her parents would say that when I was spending time with my dad, they would say he was "babysitting." She used to insist that he was being a father. A parent. Not "babysitting", which devalued his role and assumed that the only real parent a child has is his/her mother.

Such gender roles hurt both sexes tremendously. And they manifest in workplace discriminatory practices and in custody cases where the father is left mostly with visitation with his children.

 

[Volodya]

Finally, what needs to be done is to make sure the law is enforced. The labor industry is not allowed to discriminate based on gender.

So why can't I get a job as a highly tipped waitress, or well paid fashion model then?

That is discrimination.

 

[Volodya]

Boy, I sure hope all this male discrimination stops so I can finally start my career in serving people or acting as their assistant.

That sounds fairly elitist to me.

It seems that you are fine with discrimination at the lower levels of the employment field - funny, how that works isn't it.

 

[Aquitaine]

So why can't I get a job as a highly tipped waitress, or well paid fashion model then?

That is discrimination.

Just out of curiosity, if a Male applies for a job modelling Female underwear and gets denied because he's Male, do you see that as Discrimination based on Sex/Gender?

 

[Volodya]

He would get denied if it were a unisex style, especially if he were ugly.

And as for waitressing, forget it!

The unattractive male earns WAY less than the hot girl - that is discrimination so why aren't you complaining about it?

 

[Aquitaine]

He would get denied if it were a unisex style, especially if he were ugly.

And as for waitressing, forget it!

The unattractive male earns WAY less than the hot girl - that is discrimination so why aren't you complaining about it?

But again just to get a better understanding, you would basically argue against a Male model being denied a job modelling Female underwear, on the basis he is Male? You would see that as Sex/Gender Discrimination?

Secondly, I'm not aware that "hot" Females earn more than "unattractive" Males, unless it's via tips or something.

 

[Volodya]

via tips or something? That is how the restaurant serving industry operates in the US, so err like, hello, yes, of course it's about tips - sheesh!

Hot girls virtually always get more money per month in tips, than unattractive men.

That is DISCRIMINATION pure and simple, so again, why aren't you complaining about this?

 

[Aquitaine]

via tips or something? That is how the restaurant serving industry operates in the US, so err like, hello, yes, of course it's about tips - sheesh!

Hot girls virtually always get more money per month in tips, than unattractive men.

That is DISCRIMINATION pure and simple, so again, why aren't you complaining about this?

Is it because you are a hypocrite?

Well..... because it's not the Employer doing the tipping, it's the customer. Were the customers engaging in Discrimination?

Secondly, have you given my other question any thought? *hint-hint*

 

[Volodya]

The employer let's this happen and actually lowers the wage accordingly, so YES the employer is in cahoots with the customer - he is facilitating discrimination.

And the customer, who is subsidising the wage, is also being discriminatory - so why allow it?


+
A male modeling female underwear would not be appropriate.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

via tips or something? That is how the restaurant serving industry operates in the US, so err like, hello, yes, of course it's about tips - sheesh!

Hot girls virtually always get more money per month in tips, than unattractive men.

That is DISCRIMINATION pure and simple, so again, why aren't you complaining about this?

Is it because you are a hypocrite?

I agree with you here. Feminists shouldn't act as if women are the only victims of gender discrimination. Also, I shouldn't have to put the toilet seat down... Why don't they put it up?

 

[Aquitaine]

The employer let's this happen and actually lowers the wage accordingly, so YES the employer is in cahoots with the customer - he is facilitating discrimination.

And the customer, who is subsidising the wage, is also being discriminatory - so why allow it?

How on Earth are you going to "regulate" how the customers tip? Ugh, this is one of the reasons why I'm glad we don't have Tips in my country. ^_^

I must say though, that a customer deciding to tip more isn't the same as an employer deciding to pay more.

A male modeling female underwear would not be appropriate.

Would it be Discrimination in your eyes?

 

[Me Myself]

That sounds fairly elitist to me.

It seems that you are fine with discrimination at the lower levels of the employment field - funny, how that works isn't it.

Hummm interesting observation. It may correlate to why there are so many more homeless men than homeless women.