Is God a man?

[Trailblazer]

IOW he is not God with the illusion of a man's body, or a man husk with God's spirit inside, or part God and part man. Just fully God and fully man.

How can anyone be fully God and fully man? What do Christians mean by that?

 

[InChrist]

..so does Jesus consist of an indeterminable amount of souls, or one soul?

You have agreed with me that our souls "come from G-d" .. as I see it, Jesus' soul is no different
in that respect .. he only has one.

I agree, the physical Person of Jesus had one soul as every other human being.

Of course He can .. but that has nothing to do with a person being G-d.


So do I..


No .. the belief of fully human/fully God was established by a human council, centuries after Jesus ascended to heaven. They had a vote.


Yes 'Son of God' is not to be taken literally, as in G-d gave birth..
In the OT, It is a term denoting a special relationship with G-d, as in saint or prophet etc.
It is only because of Hellenist roots and politics, that the term became taken more literally in
official Christianity.

I don’t think the term Son of God is meant to be taken literally as if to say God gave birth, either. I realize that in the OT the term son denotes a special person, prophet or the nation of Israel. Nevertheless, the term Son of God is uniquely applied to Jesus in an exclusive , special way which I believe demonstrates His eternal existence and relationship with the Father .

Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.” Matthew 14:33


“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18


Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
John 6:69


She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.” John 11:27

What is the doctrine of eternal Sonship and is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

What is the doctrine of eternal Sonship and is it biblical? Was Jesus always the Son of God, or did He become the Son of God at the incarnation?

www.gotquestions.org

..under Constantine's rule Christianity expanded throughout the Empire, launching the era of Christian Church's dominance under the Constantinian dynasty.
However, if Constantine himself sincerely converted to Christian religion or remained loyal to Paganism is still a matter of debate between scholars (see also Constantine's Religious policy). His formal conversion to Christianity in 312 is almost universally acknowledged among historians, despite that he was baptized only on his deathbed by the Arian bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia (337);
...
but in 391, under Theodosius I, Nicene Christianity became the official State church of the Roman Empire to the exclusion of all other Christian churches and Hellenistic religions, including Roman religion itself. Pleas for religious tolerance from traditionalists such as the senator Symmachus (d. 402) were rejected, and Christian monotheism became a feature of Imperial domination. Heretics as well as non-Christians were subject to exclusion from public life or persecution
>>> Culture_of_ancient_Rome - Wikipedia <<<

..so we can see that Christianity, as we know it today, was influenced by Roman politics, and
one needs further study, to understand how it evolved over centuries after Jesus' ascension.

I don’t agree, nor believe the Roman church/state initiated the belief/doctrine concerning the Deity of Christ or the Triune Nature of the Godhead, although validated it against various other heresies. I’d say the early Apostles and church came to realize and understand Who Jesus was after His resurrection…

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “MyLord and my God!” John 20:28

And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Acts 7:59

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How can anyone be fully God and fully man? What do Christians mean by that?

If you are asking me how something can be 100% x and 100% y at the same time when x and y are different things, I have no answer. It clearly cannot be the case. Nevertheless that is Christian teaching. You can read more about the hypostatic union here:

Hypostatic union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And by the way, you'll notice that a good number of Christians in the forum also reject this orthodoxy, opting instead for the man shell filled by God idea.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, God is not human.

No, of course not. If God was a human then God would not be God, since God is not a human.

Most of the problem arises around the allegation that [he] made humans in [his] own image ─ and of course no one knows quite what that means.

I know what that means. It means that humans were created with the 'potential' to reflect the attributes of God, which are the attributes of their Divine nature. The attributes of man's Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus is God. It is a fallacy in your mind.

John 14:9, "Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? "

The only fallacy is in the minds of Christians who believe that Jesus is God.
John 14:9 does not mean that Jesus is God. It means that anyone who has seen Jesus has seen a reflection of God, a mirror image.

Colossians 1

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Anyone who has seen Jesus has seen God's attributes (qualities) manifested in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh, then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God. We know that many people saw Jesus so that is one way we know that Jesus was not God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I agree, the physical Person of Jesus had one soul as every other human being.

Right .. then it makes no sense to say that he is G-d then.
..unless of course, you think that G-d is also a person with one soul.

I don’t agree, nor believe the Roman church/state initiated the belief/doctrine concerning the Deity of Christ..

I never SAID who initiated it .. I said that they ESTABLISHED it (Nicene Christianity), persecuting as heretics (including Arian Christians, who baptised Constantine) those that didn't conform.

Scholars are in no doubt that the wikipedia article is correct on those points.

I’d say the early Apostles and church came to realize and understand Who Jesus was after His resurrection…

Mmm .. but this is not based on anything but a feeling that the "Greek version" of 3-gods-in-one that replaces the Hebrew version that Jesus followed, is correct.

Jesus did NOT worship himself .. but of course, you don't really care about that do you.
It's all a mystery etc. etc.

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “MyLord and my God!” John 20:28

Mmm .. and Jesus said, it's not what you put into your mouth, but what comes out of it.

..and he also is reported to have said (not in English, of course ) "Do not kneel to(worship) me. Only G-d is worthy of worship"

In any case, I don't usually throw verses around to prove a point .. basically because it proves nothing!
G-d guides whomsoever He wills .. we only fool ourselves.

 

[InChrist]

"indwell" ?

Isn't G-d "indwelling" in all of us?
What would we be without a soul?

While I believe the soul is from God and created by God, I don’t think the soul of each person is the indwelling of God. The scriptures show various conditions of the human soul, as well as, at what point the Spirit of God enters to take up residence in someone.


But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ John 3:5-7

For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:11-17

——————
The human soul seems to be distinct from the heart (Deuteronomy 26:16; 30:6) and the spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23; Hebrews 4:12) and the mind (Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27). The human soul is created by God (Jeremiah 38:16). It can be strong or unsteady (2 Peter 2:14); it can be lost or saved (James 1:21; Ezekiel 18:4). We know that the human soul needs atonement (Leviticus 17:11) and is the part of us that is purified and protected by the truth and the work of the Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1:22). Jesus is the great Shepherd of souls (1 Peter 2:25).

What is the human soul? | GotQuestions.org

What is the human soul? What does the Bible say about the nature of the human soul? How is the human soul related to the body and spirit?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[muhammad_isa]

While I believe the soul is from God and created by God, I don’t think the soul of each person is the indwelling of God..

Well, that's it, isn't it.
It could mean more or less anything you want it to mean.

eg. the Holy Spirit entered into Saul
or .. the Holy Spirit left John

or .. Jesus IS God .. and so is the Holy Spirit .. but the Holy Spirit is not Jesus
etc. etc. etc.

 

[InChrist]

Right .. then it makes no sense to say that he is G-d then.
..unless of course, you think that G-d is also a person with one soul.

It makes sense to me if Jesus was/is fully human and fully God. I think Jesus was a human person with a soul, as well as the eternal Son who is a Person with all the God Attributes & Character.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 1:14; 16-18

I never SAID who initiated it .. I said that they ESTABLISHED it (Nicene Christianity), persecuting as heretics (including Arian Christians, who baptised Constantine)

Scholars are in no doubt that the wikipedia article is correct on those points.


Mmm .. but this is not based on anything but a feeling that the "Greek version" of 3-gods-in-one that replaces the Hebrew version that Jesus followed, is correct.

Jesus did NOT worship himself .. but of course, you don't really care about that do you.
It's all a mystery etc. etc.



Mmm .. and Jesus said, it's not what you put into your mouth, but what comes out of it.

..and he also is reported to have said (not in English, of course ) "Do not kneel to(worship) me. Only G-d is worthy of worship"

In any case, I don't usually throw verses around to prove a point .. basically because it proves nothing!
G-d guides whomsoever He wills .. we only fool ourselves.

I have not said I think Jesus ever worshipped Himself. I don’t remember saying you did, either.

I’d be interested in the reference to this…

“Do not kneel to(worship) me. Only G-d is worthy of worship"

 

[InChrist]

Well, that's it, isn't it.
It could mean more or less anything you want it to mean.

eg. the Holy Spirit entered into Saul
or .. the Holy Spirit left John

or .. Jesus IS God .. and so is the Holy Spirit .. but the Holy Spirit is not Jesus
etc. etc. etc.

I don’t actually think it can mean anything other than what the scriptures teach. In the OT the Holy Spirit only entered specific individuals for certain purposes and/or purposes. The NT reveals that now all born again believers in Jesus Christ receive the Holy Spirit permanently.
True, the Holy Spirit is not Jesus Christ.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I have not said I think Jesus ever worshipped Himself. I don’t remember saying you did, either.

No .. but if Jesus is G-d, then why did Jesus worship "the Father"?

There's no need to answer that .. because whatever you say makes no sense to me.
If Jesus is "fully God", then what could "the Father" actually be .. "fully God" as well?
That makes 2 beings that are "fully God"

..and one "fully God" being worships the other "fully God being".

“Do not kneel to(worship) me. Only G-d is worthy of worship"

We only see what we want to see.
You quote a verse, and I quote a verse in contradiction, and so on and so forth.

..but it is from Mark 10:-

“As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. ‘Good teacher,’ he asked, ‘what must I do to inherit eternal life?’ ‘Why do you call me good?’ Jesus answered. ‘No one is good – except God alone."

There are many translations of the Bible, and "Youngs" is a more literal one.

17 And as he is going forth into the way, one having run and having kneeled to him, was questioning him, `Good teacher, what may I do, that life age-during I may inherit?'
18 And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one [is] good except One -- God;

It would appear that he objected to the kneeling/prostration to him .. the word "good" is not that offensive, now is it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

——————
The human soul seems to be distinct from the heart (Deuteronomy 26:16; 30:6) and the spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23; Hebrews 4:12) and the mind (Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27). The human soul is created by God (Jeremiah 38:16). It can be strong or unsteady (2 Peter 2:14); it can be lost or saved (James 1:21; Ezekiel 18:4). We know that the human soul needs atonement (Leviticus 17:11) and is the part of us that is purified and protected by the truth and the work of the Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1:22). Jesus is the great Shepherd of souls (1 Peter 2:25).

Yes .. we have more in common than we have differences.
We both believe in Almighty God.

I was raised as a Christian, and a 'choir boy' in my youth.
I discovered Islam in my early 20's, and by the grace of God am still a believer.

May we both die as believers. Amen.

 

[InChrist]

No .. but if Jesus is G-d, then why did Jesus worship "the Father"?

There's no need to answer that .. because whatever you say makes no sense to me.
If Jesus is "fully God", then what could "the Father" actually be .. "fully God" as well?
That makes 2 beings that are "fully God"

..and one "fully God" being worships the other "fully God being".

I believe Jesus worshipped His Father because at that point in time while on earth Jesus was living in and from His human position and demonstrating an example for others. I know you don’t see it as I do and what I see makes no sense to you, but I appreciate the conversation.

We only see what we want to see.
You quote a verse, and I quote a verse in contradiction, and so on and so forth.

..but it is from Mark 10:-

“As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. ‘Good teacher,’ he asked, ‘what must I do to inherit eternal life?’ ‘Why do you call me good?’ Jesus answered. ‘No one is good – except God alone."

There are many translations of the Bible, and "Youngs" is a more literal one.

17 And as he is going forth into the way, one having run and having kneeled to him, was questioning him, `Good teacher, what may I do, that life age-during I may inherit?'
18 And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one [is] good except One -- God;

It would appear that he objected to the kneeling/prostration to him .. the word "good" is not that offensive, now is it.

Thank you for the reference and elaboration of your thoughts. I think since Jesus highlighted the word “good” that was the point He was addressing, rather than the kneeling or He would have told the young man not to kneel before Him, as various angels told others in the scripture accounts. I think Jesus was asking a rhetorical question to reveal an important truth…

Why do you call me good?’ Jesus answered. ‘No one is good – except God alone."

The scriptures reveal Jesus as “good”, the Good Shepherd who went around healing and demonstrating love and truth, the perfect, sinless Lamb of God.
So, if God alone is good and Jesus is good, then Jesus’ words show that He is God.

 

[InChrist]

Yes .. we have more in common than we have differences.
We both believe in Almighty God.

I was raised as a Christian, and a 'choir boy' in my youth.
I discovered Islam in my early 20's, and by the grace of God am still a believer.

May we both die as believers. Amen.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and friendly conversation.
I was raised a Catholic, but never knew Jesus. Then drifted through eastern spirituality, new age, Mormonism and other stuff. Then Jesus saved me from my lost, confused state.

Have a good night.

 

[Trailblazer]

No .. but if Jesus is G-d, then why did Jesus worship "the Father"?

There's no need to answer that .. because whatever you say makes no sense to me.
If Jesus is "fully God", then what could "the Father" actually be .. "fully God" as well?
That makes 2 beings that are "fully God"

..and one "fully God" being worships the other "fully God being".

Don't try to make logical sense out of Christian doctrines, you never will.
Just ask yourself why God would give us rational minds and then expect us to believe what is irrational.

 

[Soapy]

How can anyone be fully God and fully man? What do Christians mean by that?

It means they are lying and being deceitful, devilish, unholy, and irreverent to the truth of the one true God; Greving the Spirit of YHWH God.

…. or, sympathetically, extremely misled.

 

[Soapy]

Don't try to make logical sense out of Christian doctrines, you never will.
Just ask yourself why God would give us rational minds and then expect us to believe what is irrational.

Don't try to make logical sense out of …TRINITARIAN, ONENESS, PENTECOSTAL, in fact, any ‘JESUS IS GOD’ doctrines, you never will, and no one can… because it’s irreconcilable ideology.

Jesus is a man consecrated BY GOD. If Jesus WAS GOD he would not need to be consecrated by …. God!!!

Moreover, all these false ideologies SWAY between:

1. Jesus is EQUAL to GOD and…
2. Jesus IS GOD and …
3. Jesus is the Son of God and …
4. Jesus is inferior to God (‘The Father js greater than I’ (words spoken by Jesus, himself. If they are false did Jesus say he was equal to God? And again, if they are false then how can anything else claimed as Jesus’ words be trusted to be true words?)

These three claims cannot all be true together.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So, if God alone is good and Jesus is good, then Jesus’ words show that He is God..

As I say, we see what we want to see..

Do you REALLY think that nobody can be "good" except for G-d?
Of course they can ..

36 Then come with them doth Jesus to a place called Gethsemane, and he saith to the disciples, `Sit ye here, till having gone away, I shall pray yonder.'
37 And having taken Peter, and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful, and to be very heavy;
38 then saith he to them, `Exceedingly sorrowful is my soul -- unto death; abide ye here, and watch with me.'

39 And having gone forward a little, he fell on his face, praying, and saying, `My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou.'
- Matthew 26 -

"he fell on his face" i.e. he prostrated

 

[Soapy]

As I say, we see what we want to see..

Do you REALLY think that nobody can be "good" except for G-d?
Of course they can ..

36 Then come with them doth Jesus to a place called Gethsemane, and he saith to the disciples, `Sit ye here, till having gone away, I shall pray yonder.'
37 And having taken Peter, and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful, and to be very heavy;
38 then saith he to them, `Exceedingly sorrowful is my soul -- unto death; abide ye here, and watch with me.'

39 And having gone forward a little, he fell on his face, praying, and saying, `My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou.'
- Matthew 26 -

"he fell on his face" i.e. he prostrated

And ‘Good’ is Relative.

But only one is COMPLETELY Good… the one true God.

Jesus was ‘Good’ relative to his brethren … but not in relativity to his Heavenly Father, YHWH GOD: ‘My Father is greater than I’.

 

[Soapy]

I agree, the physical Person of Jesus had one soul as every other human being.

I don’t think the term Son of God is meant to be taken literally as if to say God gave birth, either. I realize that in the OT the term son denotes a special person, prophet or the nation of Israel. Nevertheless, the term Son of God is uniquely applied to Jesus in an exclusive , special way which I believe demonstrates His eternal existence and relationship with the Father .

Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.” Matthew 14:33


“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18


Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
John 6:69


She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.” John 11:27

What is the doctrine of eternal Sonship and is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

What is the doctrine of eternal Sonship and is it biblical? Was Jesus always the Son of God, or did He become the Son of God at the incarnation?

www.gotquestions.org

I don’t agree, nor believe the Roman church/state initiated the belief/doctrine concerning the Deity of Christ or the Triune Nature of the Godhead, although validated it against various other heresies. I’d say the early Apostles and church came to realize and understand Who Jesus was after His resurrection…

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “MyLord and my God!” John 20:28

And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Acts 7:59

The term “Son of God” means:

• “He who does the works of the Father”

Jesus madd this very point when he defended himself after the Jews accused him of:

• “Making himself equal to God”

Jesus’ response was to say that he was “Doing the works of the Father”. The Jews would have understood this as simply as they also understood what Jesus meant when he accused some of them of:

• “Doing the works of their Father, The devil (Satan)… he was a liar from the beginning!’

Why is the meaning so hard to understand by those who try to accuse Jesus of being GOD!!!? Jesus said, effectively:

• “I did not say I was equal to God. I said only that God is my Father…because I am doing HIS WORKS. If I am not then do not believe me… And I mean it the way just the same way I say that Satan is your Father BECAUSE YOU ARE DOING HIS WORKS!!!’ (Paraphrased)

No one should ever be arguing that Jesus was LITERALLY BORN as a PROCREATION of God.
God does not and cannot (!!) PROCREATE… God only CREATES!!!

These differences (the lack of understanding) are due to incredibly wretched thinking by those who humanise GOD, a Spirit, into a fleshly being.
Some of it is also malicious - deliberately making fun of a religious belief and also some from desire to worship a ‘strange’ God borne from their imagination. It’s sad but inevitable because Satan has put it in them to destroy the truth of the one true immortal and immutable God: YHWH by his eternal name.

I just saw an article about a written 500 page debate between two people on the matter of what Jesus meant by ‘I Am’ in ‘Before Abraham, I am’ (technically, it was about ‘Eigo Eimi’ but you know what I mean!). I fail to understand the argument since ‘Eigo Eimi’ is not the name of God nor even is ‘I am’. The NAME of God is not either or both ‘Eigo Eimi’ or ‘I am’ since these two are MEANINGS of the NAME ‘YHWH’, and no one speaks of another saying the meaning of their name as a proof of themself: Peter did not say to anyone:

• ‘I am Peter… God the rock’

Moreover, who is being spoken of here:

• ‘The Stone that was rejected Hd and the corner stone.’
• ‘The Rock that followed the children of Israel in the wilderness was CHRIST!’

What is the correct meaning of the word translated ‘Christ’ in that verse? Does it not just mean, ‘the saving grace’ - ‘that which saved them’… it certainly does not mean ‘Jesus CHRIST’…

And, was the verse about Peter, the apostle…or Jesus Christ??? Afterall, ‘Peter’ also means, ‘The Stone’ as well as ‘The Rock.

What I’m showing is that improper desires and misinterpretations cause drastically deceitful beliefs which are exploited by those who seek to destroy the word of God and bring the name of God into disrepute.

Jesus did not call himself as being ‘Equal to God’ but says only that ‘God is my Father’ and that being ‘Son of God’ means doing what his Father commanded him to do… From his birth he was TAUGHT BY GOD until God called and SENT HIM when he was 30 years old. God blessed him by anointing him as “Son of God” with the Father’s Spirit just as a Father crowns his most beloved (firstborn… a term!!) when the boy becomes a mature in Spirit of learning (earned his degree…!). Jesus stood up in the synagogue afterwards saying: “This day, this prophesy has been fulfilled in me!!’ And they were so incensed that they Jews tried to throw him off a cliff!!’