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Is God a real *********?

Noaidi

Noaidi

slow walker
sandy whitelinger said:
To make an assumption about something without being able say why in definite terms will loose you a debate everytime. Think harder.
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OK. Morally it would be considered wrong to allow the consequences of suffering to arise if they can be avoided. That's my stance. Why? Because suffering causes both physical and mental harm and, having experienced both, I can safely say that it's something that I don't want to experience it if I can avoid it. Suffering is detrimental to us physically as it involves pain. Pain is your body's method of telling you that something is damaging you, so we have a natural aversion to pain or things that cause us pain.

So, if suffering (pain) can be avoided, then that could be deemed "right". Not alleviating pain when it is possible to do so could be deemed "wrong". Because we have a theory of mind, we know what a suffering person is experiencing and, naturally, we want to remove it. Empathy.

If this isn't a satisfactory answer for you, then can you expand your question please? You've said that so far no-one has answered your question - perhaps you need to give us a bit more to work with.
 
idav

idav

Being
Premium Member
Odion said:
Who knows. After all, to a deity we would be like specks of specks of specks of dust, would we not?
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With infinite knowledge it shouldn't matter how minute it is.

Only if said pain is real.
Otherwise, it's no different to playing a scary or violent video game.
Ultimately, no real harm is done, even if it is scary or looks painful on the outside.
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But I'm talking of the perspective from the inside.

Not really.

If I have a dream my wife has an affair, should I be able to divorce her because I had all those feelings, even though were not real in the first place?
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You might be relieved that it was a dream but the pain and suffering still existed from perspective. If I woke up from life being a dream I might be somewhat relieved and somewhat sad depending on how hard life was. Regardless the experiences are still real enough to make an impact.
 
Breathe

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
idav said:
With infinite knowledge it shouldn't matter how minute it is.
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Who said Deity must have infinite knowledge? Is this not putting things onto a Deity which may or may not have it?

What even is "infinite knowledge"?

Regardless, even if it did have infinite knowledge, it would still not mean it must care for our wellbeing, or even if it does, must or even can do anything.


But I'm talking of the perspective from the inside.
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But that wouldn't be real, ultimately, would it? :)


You might be relieved that it was a dream but the pain and suffering still existed from perspective. If I woke up from life being a dream I might be somewhat relieved and somewhat sad depending on how hard life was. Regardless the experiences are still real enough to make an impact.
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Not really.

I've had excellent dreams, and when I've woken up, I haven't gone "Oh that sucks, I wish I didn't wake from that dream". I just get up, and enjoy all the things of this life.

Somehow I don't imagine post mokṣa it will be much different; we will wake up and be pleasantly surprised.
 
idav

idav

Being
Premium Member
Odion said:
Somehow I don't imagine post mokṣa it will be much different; we will wake up and be pleasantly surprised.
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No doubt after freeing yourself from the material world and the suffering involved with it.
 
ManTimeForgot

ManTimeForgot

Temporally Challenged
As much as I enjoy debate I really do think that this topic has been done to death. Of course under normal circumstances I don't really need an excuse to look at videos of hot chicks, but she comes across as rather bitter and thats like a -3 on the hotness scale.

Long story short:

The "problem of evil' relies upon us knowing the mind of "God" in a very literal sense. Perhaps "God" does not allow intervention. Perhaps "God" views the "act" of creation as being over and done. Perhaps "God" does not view suffering on a small scale as being detrimental to the whole (we have no cognizance of the whole of humanity let alone the whole universe). There are just too many "perhaps" to even create a logical argument.

MTF
 
lunakilo

lunakilo

Well-Known Member
ManTimeForgot said:
As much as I enjoy debate I really do think that this topic has been done to death. Of course under normal circumstances I don't really need an excuse to look at videos of hot chicks, but she comes across as rather bitter and thats like a -3 on the hotness scale.

Long story short:

The "problem of evil' relies upon us knowing the mind of "God" in a very literal sense. Perhaps "God" does not allow intervention. Perhaps "God" views the "act" of creation as being over and done. Perhaps "God" does not view suffering on a small scale as being detrimental to the whole (we have no cognizance of the whole of humanity let alone the whole universe). There are just too many "perhaps" to even create a logical argument.

MTF
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I think the conclusion so far in this thread is that her argument only works on an omnipotent, all-knowing, all-loving God, but any other type of god is acquitted :)
 
AgreeToDisagree

AgreeToDisagree

The Nobody
You guys seems to forget the concept of afterlife in the belief of and omnipotent, omniscient, beneficent god.

This discussion/debate only addresses life that is in this world. it may seem unfair for others to suffer in this world ... but in the afterlife, god is capable of resurrecting the person who suffered and rewarding him with a blissful eternal life.

But of course this only applies to those who believe in god and the afterlife. For those who don't believe in the afterlife, then it will seem totally unfair.
 
lunakilo

lunakilo

Well-Known Member
AgreeToDisagree said:
You guys seems to forget the concept of afterlife in the belief of and omnipotent, omniscient, beneficent god.

This discussion/debate only addresses life that is in this world. it may seem unfair for others to suffer in this world ... but in the afterlife, god is capable of resurrecting the person who suffered and rewarding him with a blissful eternal life.

But of course this only applies to those who believe in god and the afterlife. For those who don't believe in the afterlife, then it will seem totally unfair.
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So what is the point of this life?

A omnipotent, omniscient, beneficent god could just erase this 'not-afterlife' and let all the good people live the nice afterlife.

God suposedly knows who the good guys are and also who the bad guys are, so why let people suffer? Why not go straight to the afterlife?
 
C

cottage

Well-Known Member
sandy whitelinger said:
What is wrong with suffering?
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Nothing - unless of course arguments are advanced that invite a contradiction!

The New Testament tells us over and over again that suffering is bad and that God is good. Further more the ultimate removal of suffering is promised: "There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away" (Revelation 21:4). So, suffering exists and as the alleviation of suffering is a good thing (as the Bible tells us), suffering is therefore an evidential and a logical problem for believers in God.

We can conceive of the world not existing, since there is nothing contradictory in the notion. And this conception is supported by theists themselves who argue that the world is contingent upon God: ie that the world doesn’t exist of itself. So it must follow that if our world need not exist, then the same applies to the suffering that features in our world. It is therefore demonstrated that suffering isn’t logically necessary. To sum up, it would be patently absurd to say an omnipotent God was compelled to cause the existence of suffering. Yet suffering exists! Therefore unnecessary suffering is caused or made possible by the will of God. At which point we must return once more to the paragraph headed 'The New Testament'.
 
victormeldrew

victormeldrew

Member
sandy whitelinger said:
All I'm asking is for someone to state what is wrong with suffering. It's wrongness is the basis of the discussion.

I'm reminded of Supreme Court Justice Potter Stuart who said, "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it."
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Use your own sense of right and wrong. If you think it is wrong for a gunman to kill students at a summer camp you have an understanding about moral rectitude. If you believe in an all-powerful God, the washing away of thousands of people in a tsunami should trouble you. Do the same rules not apply? Is this not an immoral act?

The point of the 'Problem of Suffering' question is that mono-theistic doctrines cannot answer it. It demolishes the idea that the world has been created and is watched over by an all-powerful, all-knowing God who loves us and has created us for a purpose.

Here is a video that gives as plausible a reason as any for the the existence of suffering, and for the purpose and meaning of our lives.

It is called 'God says sorry'.
God says sorry. - YouTube

Be happy!

Victor
 
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