Is God Helpless under the Realm of Free Will????

[Burl]

must not one count on disagreement to point the direction by which one can search to discover the real answers?

I agree.

 

[Walter Russell]

In the past when I got into an argument over Hell, I asked the question: If God created Hell knowing someone would actually go there, wouldn't God be a Monster? The answer I received back was that since we all have free will, God is helpless to stop one from going to Hell if they choose Hell for themselves.

Is God really helpless within the realm of free will? I think not.

I was walking through a store one day. A lady was demonstrating some fancy cookware. I don't remember the name. To make a long story short, before she was done with me, I purchased all the cookware. The funny thing was I didn't need cookware, nor did I want cookware, however I bought all the cookware under my own free will.

I know a man who is the world's greatest salesman. He says that a salesman knows he is good when he can sell someone something they don't need or want and make them happy they bought it. This saleslady did just that to me.

This brings us to the point. Is God not capable of doing the very same thing? I have free will and I have cookware now. Wouldn't Hell be empty if God cares at all and yes, under the realm of free will?

So this brings us to the question: Is God a Monster or not? I think not. The concept of Hell is what does not add up.

My opinion,

God isn't a monster.

Hell isn't real, with the exception of the one we create for ourselves in the here and now.

God is patiently waiting for his "for lack of better pronoun" creation to awake to the realization of him in us so that we may co create with him, in harmony with the rest of his creation.

 

[Thanda]

People like to change what Religion teaches. Hell is taught to be eternal. Of course, you are right that God can choose to do anything. With that in mind, why would an Intelligent Being create Hell in the first place. What purpose could it serve? Does torture really teach one to do anything but hate? If God is Love, why would He set up a place to teach hate?

Because he wants us to hate sin?

 

[Thanda]

That's one of the problems I've found with regards to
the whole hell concept. In order for it to work, God's
Divinity as to be downgraded to that of a demigod or
super-angel (at best). Then, He isn't really God anymore.
The concepts of an endless hell and an all-powerful, all-
knowing God who is also Love itself don't mesh well at all.

I think your cookware scenario demonstrates how God's
ability to attract souls to Him without force would work.
I suspect He's that attractive, alluring, persuasive; it
will be love at first sight. The soul will choose Him,
willingly.




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I disagree. If God is Love and is also Truth then it follows that he would not want to give someone something they actually didn't want. If God is genuine then he should want genuine followers.

E.g. read John 6. The context is in chapter 5 where Jesus feeds a multitude. The crowd is ready to receive Jesus as a king but instead he flees from them. We find out why he fled in chapter six. He begins telling them about his spiritual mission and all they can think about is him making more bread and fish. He tells them that even if they eat food they will die but if they eat the spiritual food he is offering they will have eternal life. The whole crowd abandons him.
Jesus could have made "disciples" of them by doing more miracles (specifically the miracles they wanted). But he was not after fake disciples. He was after people who genuinely cared more about the welfare of their souls than the welfare of their stomachs or pockets.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Pain is no more or no less that something is wrong. Without pain, one could cut their hand off then bleed to death and never know anything was wrong.

Suffering exists for many good reasons. How about these few reasons? 1.If everything we do returns in time to teach us what our actions mean, people can choose some hard lessons for themselves. Is it really bad if a God teaches based on what each chooses for themselves. 2. How about Volunteers? Aren't there great souls who volunteer to go through great adversity in order that others learn and understand? Is it really bad for God to allow some to volunteer to help create a better smarter world?

Funny how you should find many good reasons for suffering in this life, but not the next..
Oh well .. we will find out one day, perhaps..

 

[RRex]

There is no free will.

 

[Astravalon]

I disagree. If God is Love and is also Truth then it follows that he would not want to give someone something they actually didn't want. If God is genuine then he should want genuine followers.

You may need to re-read my post.
Nowhere did I suggest non-genuine followers,
nor God giving someone something they didn't want.

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[Bird123]

Hmm... Theism within Monism...Corruption within Perfection...and where will this all lead...

Now, I must be careful how I answer. The sensors might come after me and cut my head off. Still, I feel I must say something. Think about the entire picture and maybe you will see.

It Leads to Perfect, Wise, Little Kiddies who fully understand Math.

 

[Bird123]

There is no free will.

No free will??? Hmmm? Didn't you make a free choice to post a reply??? Is someone making you reply??

 

[Deeje]

People like to change what Religion teaches. Hell is taught to be eternal. Of course, you are right that God can choose to do anything. With that in mind, why would an Intelligent Being create Hell in the first place. What purpose could it serve? Does torture really teach one to do anything but hate? If God is Love, why would He set up a place to teach hate?

Actually, religion changes what the Bible teaches.

Hell is eternal, but there is no suffering....in the Bible everlasting life is contrasted with everlasting death. These are opposites, not heaven and hell. Nowhere does the Bible teach that the good go to heaven whilst the wicked go to hell. The Bible's hell is simply the grave...we all go there. Even Jesus went there. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

As the most intelligent being in existence, God's intellect is only found wanting by those who choose to corrupt what his word teaches.
It is man whose intelligence should be called into question.

Since God created punishments to correct wrong conduct, leading to repentance that can be forgiven, hell (as taught by the churches) serves no purpose at all. What kind of a loving God derives pleasure from the suffering of others. There is no justice served and no point to it.

God placed only "life or death" before his people....he told them to choose life by obeying him. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) If Adam had done that, he never would have died. There was no "natural" cause of death in the beginning. Humans die because of what Adam did. (Romans 5:12)

"God IS Love" so that eliminates any place like hell. When Israel fell to sacrificing their children in the fire to false gods, the true God said...."And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind."

The concept of a "hell" of eternal fiery torment doesn't come from God....he said such a thing wouldn't even enter his mind.

 

[Thanda]

You may need to re-read my post.
Nowhere did I suggest non-genuine followers,
nor God giving someone something they didn't want.

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Sure but you seem to conflate God's goodness with everyone automatically liking him and following him against all evidence to the contrary in the real world. Not everyone liked Ghandi, Mandela, Buddha, or even Jesus. There is nothing about being a good person that assures you everyone will like you.

You said "I suspect He's that attractive, alluring, persuasive; it will be love at first sight. The soul will choose Him, willingly." Whose soul will choose him willingly? Your soul perhaps but what do you know about the guy next-door's soul? Will his choose God willingly? Remember that the Salesman example of the OP (of which you approved) was an example of making someone temporarily think they want or need the product. God doesn't want people who are temporarily impressed by the oratorical skills of the messenger but those who are actually impressed and drawn by the message itself.

 

[arthra]

Is God not capable of doing the very same thing? I have free will and I have cookware now. Wouldn't Hell be empty if God cares at all and yes, under the realm of free will?
So this brings us to the question: Is God a Monster or not? I think not. The concept of Hell is what does not add up.

Well Bird in my view it's impossible to have love without freewill... So when God created us He allows and permits us to choose to obey Him or not. If we choose to love Him then we would follow and obey Him...

To offer an example on a more mundane level...My father left a Will when He died.. I loved my father and so respect his Will and am reconciled to it.

If we choose not to love Him then our choice can lead us to become remote from Him and this could be for us a "Hellish" condition... but our view.. the Baha'i view ... is that we can spiritually progress over time if we choose to. It may take awhile for the spiritual life to become stronger in us and whatever hellish condition we have can eventually fall away and we can choose to love God.

 

[RRex]

No free will??? Hmmm? Didn't you make a free choice to post a reply??? Is someone making you reply??

Ever had psychosis? You see behind the curtain and learn immediately that we are puppets whose purpose is scripted for us.

 

[Burl]

Ever had psychosis? You see behind the curtain and learn immediately that we are puppets whose purpose is scripted for us.

If this is the case there would be no reason for the conditioning of young minds (TV violence etc.)

 

[Astravalon]

Sure but you seem to conflate God's goodness with everyone automatically liking him and following him against all evidence to the contrary in the real world. Not everyone liked Ghandi, Mandela, Buddha, or even Jesus. There is nothing about being a good person that assures you everyone will like you.

You said "I suspect He's that attractive, alluring, persuasive; it will be love at first sight. The soul will choose Him, willingly." Whose soul will choose him willingly? Your soul perhaps but what do you know about the guy next-door's soul? Will his choose God willingly?

How one responds to God and others while yet in a body
and how one responds to God and others when no longer
confined to a body are two different things. There's so
much physiological baggage that comes with being in a
physical body, and which influences our behavior and our
(at least, seemingly) free-will that won't be there to influence
all that once we're no longer in our physical body. The 'you'
you think you are now might not be the same 'you' you
actually are when no longer under the influence of the
biochemical cocktails generated by the physical body.

I'm also not completely convinced that "the real world" is
this one, especially given the above influences which carry
the potential to seriously skew perceptions. One person's
definition of "the real world" is not necessarily identical to
another's definition thereof.

So I wouldn't be so quick to assume that the aversions,
attractions, preferences and peeves a person has before
the grave will automatically carry over after it. A good
chunk of it is biologically and physiologically determined.

Remember that the Salesman example of the OP (of which you approved) was an example of making someone temporarily think they want or need the product. God doesn't want people who are temporarily impressed by the oratorical skills of the messenger but those who are actually impressed and drawn by the message itself.

It's difficult to see how one "makes" another person think
anything, if free-will is in the mix. Our thoughts and
emotions are ours alone, and we alone are responsible for
them.

It's also helpful to remember that this is God we're talking
about, not just messengers.

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[Thanda]

How one responds to God and others while yet in a body
and how one responds to God and others when no longer
confined to a body are two different things. There's so
much physiological baggage that comes with being in a
physical body, and which influences our behavior and our
(at least, seemingly) free-will that won't be there to influence
all that once we're no longer in our physical body. The 'you'
you think you are now might not be the same 'you' you
actually are when no longer under the influence of the
biochemical cocktails generated by the physical body.

I'm also not completely convinced that "the real world" is
this one, especially given the above influences which carry
the potential to seriously skew perceptions. One person's
definition of "the real world" is not necessarily identical to
another's definition thereof.

So I wouldn't be so quick to assume that the aversions,
attractions, preferences and peeves a person has before
the grave will automatically carry over after it. A good
chunk of it is biologically and physiologically determined.

A pointless life it would indeed be if we suddenly became new creatures (that we ourselves would hardly recognize) when we die. It would call into question the very wisdom of God and his commitment to not wasting His, yours, mine and everyone else's time.

It's difficult to see how one "makes" another person think
anything, if free-will is in the mix. Our thoughts and
emotions are ours alone, and we alone are responsible for
them.

It is not difficult to see at all. You have already accepted the experience of the OP where he was made to feel like he needs and wants something he later realized he actually didn't need or want. You are also aware of those magicians of the mind who are able to make you think through their skill. No, it is not a difficult thing to imagine that someone can be made to think they want something they really don't.

It's also helpful to remember that this is God we're talking
about, not just messengers.

This is irrelevant. Even if God stands before you you will see him as a man. He will have a message making him a messenger. And if he seeks to bring you to his fold through sophistry and persuasive language and techniques without actually getting a genuine commitment out of you through his actual message, then your discipleship and loyalty will be fleeting and temporary.

 

[Bird123]

Because he wants us to hate sin?

Does A God of Love Really wants us to Hate???? Sin can be understood. Kiddies can be educated and fixed. Hate serves only to hurt.

 

[Bird123]

Funny how you should find many good reasons for suffering in this life, but not the next..
Oh well .. we will find out one day, perhaps..

Perhaps there are many lives in order to learn and grow. I'm sure there will be growing pains. How could anyone learn it all in one mere lifetime?

There has to be justice. Eternal Hell would never be justice.

 

[Bird123]

Actually, religion changes what the Bible teaches.

Hell is eternal, but there is no suffering....in the Bible everlasting life is contrasted with everlasting death. These are opposites, not heaven and hell. Nowhere does the Bible teach that the good go to heaven whilst the wicked go to hell. The Bible's hell is simply the grave...we all go there. Even Jesus went there. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

As the most intelligent being in existence, God's intellect is only found wanting by those who choose to corrupt what his word teaches.
It is man whose intelligence should be called into question.

Since God created punishments to correct wrong conduct, leading to repentance that can be forgiven, hell (as taught by the churches) serves no purpose at all. What kind of a loving God derives pleasure from the suffering of others. There is no justice served and no point to it.

God placed only "life or death" before his people....he told them to choose life by obeying him. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) If Adam had done that, he never would have died. There was no "natural" cause of death in the beginning. Humans die because of what Adam did. (Romans 5:12)

"God IS Love" so that eliminates any place like hell. When Israel fell to sacrificing their children in the fire to false gods, the true God said...."And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind."

The concept of a "hell" of eternal fiery torment doesn't come from God....he said such a thing wouldn't even enter his mind.

Well, I think your picture is getting better. Still, I think you are right when you say to question mankind. Since all holy books are written by mankind, it is good advice to question them.

I also question people thinking that holy books are the word of God. Think about it. God has no need to write books of any kind.

 

[Bird123]

Well Bird in my view it's impossible to have love without freewill... So when God created us He allows and permits us to choose to obey Him or not. If we choose to love Him then we would follow and obey Him...

To offer an example on a more mundane level...My father left a Will when He died.. I loved my father and so respect his Will and am reconciled to it.

If we choose not to love Him then our choice can lead us to become remote from Him and this could be for us a "Hellish" condition... but our view.. the Baha'i view ... is that we can spiritually progress over time if we choose to. It may take awhile for the spiritual life to become stronger in us and whatever hellish condition we have can eventually fall away and we can choose to love God.

Yes, people can choose to change. People who need to change and refuse usually hurt until they discover it is easier to change.

To hurt is a far cry from an eternal fiery pit or to be discarded to a grave. Through our lessons in life, our intelligence will lead us to the best answers. And if all else fails, we will buy the cookware under our own free will. Love is a Powerful force which can overcome the most stubborn.