Is God Helpless under the Realm of Free Will????

[Bird123]

Ever had psychosis? You see behind the curtain and learn immediately that we are puppets whose purpose is scripted for us.

Yes,our every choice is known before it has been made. Yes, our every move is known. Yes, there is a goal. Still, we are free to choose as we wish. Simply because we are living with no choice, we have free choice within that.

Still, there is the possibility that that which you have no choice over, you chose not to have that choice. People limit there choices every day. Since placed in a physical body, aren't our memories limited to that which is at hand? You might have made the free choice and do not remember. You might not be Controlled as you think. Perhaps, God just works around you.

If you focus too much on details, you will miss what the experience is all about. I looked at a painting. It looked like a Mess until I took a few steps back. Only then could I see why the painting was so famous.

 

[Thanda]

Does A God of Love Really wants us to Hate???? Sin can be understood. Kiddies can be educated and fixed. Hate serves only to hurt.

What are you talking about - I said a God of love would want us to hate sin. What do kids being educated and fixed have to do with it. Why would you try to fix someone unless you believed what they were currently doing was wrong and harmful? Sin is what their doing not who they are.

 

[Astravalon]

A pointless life it would indeed be if we suddenly became new creatures (that we ourselves would hardly recognize) when we die. It would call into question the very wisdom of God and his commitment to not wasting His, yours, mine and everyone else's time.

Depends on how the transition, and the lessons learned while still
in the body, is handled on the other side, I suppose.
At any rate, I personally prefer renewal to stagnation.

It is not difficult to see at all. You have already accepted the experience of the OP where he was made to feel like he needs and wants something he later realized he actually didn't need or want. You are also aware of those magicians of the mind who are able to make you think through their skill. No, it is not a difficult thing to imagine that someone can be made to think they want something they really don't.

Personal choices are one's personal responsibility.
Our thoughts and emotions are our own responsibility.
I know that can sound scary, but it really isn't.
It's empowering (which I realize can also sound scary).

This is irrelevant. Even if God stands before you you will see him as a man.
He will have a message making him a messenger. And if he seeks to bring you to his fold through sophistry and persuasive language and techniques without actually getting a genuine commitment out of you through his actual message, then your discipleship and loyalty will be fleeting and temporary.

This just brings us back to what I said in post 47.
I'm not interested in going in circles. Makes me dizzy.


-

 

[Blastcat]

So this brings us to the question: Is God a Monster or not? I think not. The concept of Hell is what does not add up.

Well, you saved God from your judgement. He's GOT to be good, right?
But.. if you actually READ the bible... you might conclude otherwise.

Think of the MANY ways he actually ACTS like a total monster.
Think of Genesis.. always a good place to start.

Now, what did he do to poor Adam and Eve when they were DUPED by the very clever SALES-SNAKE?
Did he give them a shinny new set of pots?...

And after a while... what did god do?... A bit of WATER I think?
One boat.. all the rest had FREE DROWN?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Perhaps there are many lives in order to learn and grow. I'm sure there will be growing pains. How could anyone learn it all in one mere lifetime?

There has to be justice. Eternal Hell would never be justice.

Oh, I don't know
..if we don't make the necessary actions to avoid it .. we can't always leave things to others ..
Almighty God is more merciful than a mother to her child.
A heavy 'drug addict', for example, is in great danger of total moral collapse .. it's not easy to escape, but not absolutely impossible

 

[Riders]

Oh right, thats right, he is that brutal in Genesis. With the mass flood and all, and it was said we all deserved it cause of all the wickedness. Still is that supposed to be a merciful good and just god, to torture people for an eternity, are people to take Revelations literally? I don't think most denominations stuck to an eternal hell cause most rational people can see how unusually cruel that is.

According to the bible God created us and we are the image of him , if you believe in Jesus and he was a human, obviously human beings are similar enough to God that we can be God.

That being said when the heck is God going to take responsibility for creating the evil himself. By creating us in his image to be exactly like him and were creating this evil, truthfully its him creating all the evil in the world because he created us.

So when does God get his flood and his hell?

 

[Bird123]

What are you talking about - I said a God of love would want us to hate sin. What do kids being educated and fixed have to do with it. Why would you try to fix someone unless you believed what they were currently doing was wrong and harmful? Sin is what their doing not who they are.

My point comes down to this. There really are no excuses to Hate. Isn't to Hate a Sin?? I find something major wrong with a God wanting anyone to hate. Don't hate. Fix the problem instead.

 

[Bird123]

Well, you saved God from your judgement. He's GOT to be good, right?
But.. if you actually READ the bible... you might conclude otherwise.

Think of the MANY ways he actually ACTS like a total monster.
Think of Genesis.. always a good place to start.

Now, what did he do to poor Adam and Eve when they were DUPED by the very clever SALES-SNAKE?
Did he give them a shinny new set of pots?...

And after a while... what did god do?... A bit of WATER I think?
One boat.. all the rest had FREE DROWN?

Yes, your answer is really good. Looks like Hell isn't the only thing that does not add up in those Holy Books.

 

[roger1440]

I think not also.

I have dropped belief in the concept of Hell myself. I wonder why the concept still lingers.

I never believed in Hell until I met my ex. The agony seemed eternal.

 

[Bird123]

Oh, I don't know
..if we don't make the necessary actions to avoid it .. we can't always leave things to others ..
Almighty God is more merciful than a mother to her child.
A heavy 'drug addict', for example, is in great danger of total moral collapse .. it's not easy to escape, but not absolutely impossible

Are you saying Hell is just and God merciful for creating it as long as He gives a warning? I think people who want Hell to exist are really wanting to Hate. If you saw someone actually in Hell, what would you do? I would march down in Hell, pull them out then proceed to fix them regardless of how long it would take. Isn't that one's only true choice if they care at all?? You speak of Mercy.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Are you saying Hell is just and God merciful for creating it as long as He gives a warning? I think people who want Hell to exist are really wanting to Hate.

Some people might wish others in hell .. personally I wouldn't wish anyone to go there .. I'd much rather see them repent and change their ways .. even if it's my greatest enemy!

If you saw someone actually in Hell, what would you do? I would march down in Hell, pull them out then proceed to fix them regardless of how long it would take. Isn't that one's only true choice if they care at all?? You speak of Mercy.

Is that realistic? Can you save everybody from hell?

Let's just take your town's heavy drug addicts for starters. Can you "pull them all out", or would you more likely be dragged in yourself while trying?

Sure, you might be able to save some, but alas, not all

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You are only giving your opinions and feelings (Proverbs 14: 12).

When you honestly stop and consider it, isn't The Bible only (supposedly) generated from the arena of God's opinions and feelings? Taking everything down to the roots of the matter, what truly makes God's opinions and/or feelings any more important or valid than any other being's within the universe? Simply the fact that He created us/everything? The fact that He is infinitely more powerful than us and can bend us to His will? Is that what makes his opinions hold more weight? If so, why? So He can destroy you... so what? A man holding a shotgun can also "destroy" you, after a fashion - do you automatically respect him, and consider his opinion greater than your own? Or is it only because you fear the man with the gun that you show him any reverence/consideration? And our parents, they "created us" (again, after a fashion) and yet I would argue that parents still need to earn the respect of their offspring and should never simply assume that their feelings and opinions are more important.

I will admit that, in the grand scheme, our opinions and feelings mean absolutely nothing. I would argue that, by extension - so do God's.

 

[atanu]

In the past when I got into an argument over Hell, I asked the question: If God created Hell knowing someone would actually go there, wouldn't God be a Monster? The answer I received back was that since we all have free will, God is helpless to stop one from going to Hell if they choose Hell for themselves.

Is God really helpless within the realm of free will? I think not.

I was walking through a store one day. A lady was demonstrating some fancy cookware. I don't remember the name. To make a long story short, before she was done with me, I purchased all the cookware. The funny thing was I didn't need cookware, nor did I want cookware, however I bought all the cookware under my own free will.

I know a man who is the world's greatest salesman. He says that a salesman knows he is good when he can sell someone something they don't need or want and make them happy they bought it. This saleslady did just that to me.

This brings us to the point. Is God not capable of doing the very same thing? I have free will and I have cookware now. Wouldn't Hell be empty if God cares at all and yes, under the realm of free will?

So this brings us to the question: Is God a Monster or not? I think not. The concept of Hell is what does not add up.

I understand that God, the real self, the real I, the sole seer of phenomenon is free. The ego I-s, which are reflections of the real I in many mirrors (minds) appear to be bound.

 

[Bird123]

Some people might wish others in hell .. personally I wouldn't wish anyone to go there .. I'd much rather see them repent and change their ways .. even if it's my greatest enemy!


Is that realistic? Can you save everybody from hell?

Let's just take your town's heavy drug addicts for starters. Can you "pull them all out", or would you more likely be dragged in yourself while trying?

Sure, you might be able to save some, but alas, not all

Their journey is the lesson. Why would I want to stop the lesson? Most have to hit rock bottom until they realize drugs are not worth it.

 

[Bird123]

I understand that God, the real self, the real I, the sole seer of phenomenon is free. The ego I-s, which are reflections of the real I in many mirrors (minds) appear to be bound.

Bound only by choice. In time the Ego gives way to Intelligence. In time, Intelligence chooses Freedom for All.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Their journey is the lesson. Why would I want to stop the lesson?
...

Presumably, for the same reason that you would want to pull people from hell
..some people just end up morally bankrupt .. is that God's fault?

 

[Astravalon]

Presumably, for the same reason that you would want to pull people from hell
..some people just end up morally bankrupt .. is that God's fault?

God doesn't have faults, but He does have responsibility.
However, since it's not the end yet, we can't declare it
official that anyone's ended up morally bankrupt.

-

 

[Muffled]

In the past when I got into an argument over Hell, I asked the question: If God created Hell knowing someone would actually go there, wouldn't God be a Monster? The answer I received back was that since we all have free will, God is helpless to stop one from going to Hell if they choose Hell for themselves.

Is God really helpless within the realm of free will? I think not.

I was walking through a store one day. A lady was demonstrating some fancy cookware. I don't remember the name. To make a long story short, before she was done with me, I purchased all the cookware. The funny thing was I didn't need cookware, nor did I want cookware, however I bought all the cookware under my own free will.

I know a man who is the world's greatest salesman. He says that a salesman knows he is good when he can sell someone something they don't need or want and make them happy they bought it. This saleslady did just that to me.

This brings us to the point. Is God not capable of doing the very same thing? I have free will and I have cookware now. Wouldn't Hell be empty if God cares at all and yes, under the realm of free will?

So this brings us to the question: Is God a Monster or not? I think not. The concept of Hell is what does not add up.

I believe I would not have been convinced to buy cookware, So the answer is that some people will avoid Hell simply because of the hype but not everyone.

I don't believe God views Hell the same way people do. It is monstrous what people do to one another in my opinion and it seems fair to punish them accordingly. What if God is working on the premise that you get what you give. If you give death then you get it. If you torment a person, you get tormented. This seems fair to me.

 

[Muffled]

According to the bible God created us and we are the image of him , if you believe in Jesus and he was a human, obviously human beings are similar enough to God that we can be God.

That being said when the heck is God going to take responsibility for creating the evil himself. By creating us in his image to be exactly like him and were creating this evil, truthfully its him creating all the evil in the world because he created us.

So when does God get his flood and his hell?

I believe there is no evidence anywhere that God is the author of evil. There is evidence that man was created good in the Bible.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

There is evidence that man was created good in the Bible.

Shame about all the crime and wars and genocide and stuff.