Is Hell Necessary To Christianity?

[Storm]

Pointing out how ridicilious and disgusting the idea that torturing someone for eternity is somehow necessary doesn't imply that we're "worried" about it.

Indeed.

 

[Penumbra]

Likewise, I'm still trying to understand why someone who does not believe in God would worry about where he was going to send them.

That said, I guess it is a mind that can disconnect its self when absolutely necessary. Let's say your children where in danger and you had to rip your adversary limb from limb to protect your little ones. If you put much thought into it, perhaps this would be unacceptable to you. If you just react, your mind disconnects and you do what ever you have to no matter how revolting.

Perhaps some minds are just twisted and enjoy the thought of eternal damnation.

Perhaps others just do what they can and leave it all to God, thus the disconnect of the mind.

Actually the brain does this automatically as a coping mechanism. Many times a person is hurt so badly, they feel no pain.

That is the best insight I can give you. The brain is very complex.

It's not about worrying. It's about trying to understand how so many people think. If this were just a small fringe of society, it wouldn't be a big deal. But it's a huge number of people.

As I said earlier in the thread:

The discussion is not pointless simply because the god does not exist.

It's important because it sheds a lot of light on human morality (or in the case of hell, the lack of morality). Describing, through logic and compassion, why people hold not only erroneous, but gravely unethical viewpoints, is very important in my opinion.

 

[outhouse]

Furthermore, if something so ugly is so important to the religion, doesn't that make the religion itself despicable?

I believe it does make it despicable. If you take the evil god passages and lay them out one after the other, god is simple gruesome.

I dont think the religion falls apart without hell though. Theres many holes in the bible and it hasnt hurt its progress one bit. Hell is used as a tool. Its kind of a terrorist tactic of using fear. People dont dwell on it to much. I think most christians think about heaven much much more. No one thinks well im going to hell and spends any time believing thats where they wil go.

 

[Reverend Rick]

It's not about worrying. It's about trying to understand how so many people think. If this were just a small fringe of society, it wouldn't be a big deal. But it's a huge number of people.

As I said earlier in the thread:

The discussion is not pointless simply because the god does not exist.

It's important because it sheds a lot of light on human morality (or in the case of hell, the lack of morality). Describing, through logic and compassion, why people hold not only erroneous, but gravely unethical viewpoints, is very important in my opinion.

I'm trying to be helpful.

This is part of the God Fearing Christian mentality.

Myself, I never said God was kind and gentle, perhaps you are thinking of Jesus.

God the father, the all creator, is a jealous and vengeful God.

Most Christians don't spend much time worrying about hell and when they do, they usually annoy Atheists by trying to save them from hell.

It's not like modern day Christians invented hell. We just accept the eternal hell concept.

You could say the same thing about death.

A Christian could ask you, how do you believe that when you die that is it? That seems a little upsetting too don't you think?

I'm not trying to debate, I'm really trying to explain the mindset. We accept hell as part of the package, it's not like we embrace it and rejoice about it.

 

[Storm]

I'm trying to be helpful.

This is part of the God Fearing Christian mentality.

Myself, I never said God was kind and gentle, perhaps you are thinking of Jesus.

God the father, the all creator, is a jealous and vengeful God.

Most Christians don't spend much time worrying about hell and when they do, they usually annoy Atheists by trying to save them from hell.

It's not like modern day Christians invented hell. We just accept the eternal hell concept.

You could say the same thing about death.

A Christian could ask you, how do you believe that when you die that is it? That seems a little upsetting too don't you think?

I'm not trying to debate, I'm really trying to explain the mindset. We accept hell as part of the package, it's not like we embrace it and rejoice about it.

OK, I get that. But would you say Christianity falls apart without Hell? Because that's what I'm arguing against.

 

[Reverend Rick]

OK, I get that. But would you say Christianity falls apart without Hell? Because that's what I'm arguing against.

No, I don't think Christianity falls apart without hell. The LDS folks don't believe in eternal hell and they seem to be doing just fine.

 

[Storm]

No, I don't think Christianity falls apart without hell. The LDS folks don't believe in eternal hell and they seem to be doing just fine.

OK, then. While we disagree on many subjects, this is not one of them.

 

[Penumbra]

I'm trying to be helpful.

This is part of the God Fearing Christian mentality.

Myself, I never said God was kind and gentle, perhaps you are thinking of Jesus.

God the father, the all creator, is a jealous and vengeful God.

Most Christians don't spend much time worrying about hell and when they do, they usually annoy Atheists by trying to save them from hell.

It's not like modern day Christians invented hell. We just accept the eternal hell concept.

You could say the same thing about death.

A Christian could ask you, how do you believe that when you die that is it? That seems a little upsetting too don't you think?

I'm not trying to debate, I'm really trying to explain the mindset. We accept hell as part of the package, it's not like we embrace it and rejoice about it.

I don't consider Jesus particularly kind and gentle. I think people get that impression from him by focusing only on the gentler things he said while ignoring the fairly violent things he spoke of.

Rather than promoting violence in this world, he spoke of threats and torture in the next one. That's preferable to the reverse, I suppose, but I don't consider it kind or gentle.

So your god is jealous and vengeful, and you condone hell. I'm sorry to hear that, but thanks for explaining your mindset.

 

[Father Heathen]

God the father, the all creator, is a jealous and vengeful God.

I would've expected better.

It's not like modern day Christians invented hell. We just accept the eternal hell concept.

The concept of hell as modern Christians see it, arose during the middle ages.

A Christian could ask you, how do you believe that when you die that is it? That seems a little upsetting too don't you think?

And my response would be that's the reality of life. Lying about it for the sake of comfort doesn't help.

We accept hell as part of the package, it's not like we embrace it and rejoice about it.

Perhaps the package should be returned to sender.

 

[Reverend Rick]

So your god is jealous and vengeful, and you condone hell. I'm sorry to hear that, but thanks for explaining your mindset.

I don't condone hell, I accept hell. I accept many things I have no control of like earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes.

I get the vibe that you have a problem with my beliefs. I honestly don't have a problem with what you believe or don't believe.

If I may ask a question, why do you care so much about what others believe?

And a follow up, do you believe people should just walk away from their beliefs just because some folks take offence to the beliefs?

 

[Penumbra]

I don't condone hell, I accept hell. I accept many things I have no control of like earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes.

I get the vibe that you have a problem with my beliefs. I honestly don't have a problem with what you believe or don't believe.

If I may ask a question, why do you care so much about what others believe?

Because the way humans think intrigues me.

And when it involves politics, freedom, war, or gets in the way of science, someone has to point out from time to time that the emperor has no clothes.

And a follow up, do you believe people should just walk away from their beliefs just because some folks take offence to the beliefs?

No.

But I hope for people to work to constantly improve themselves in terms of empathy, reason, and things like that.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Because the way humans think intrigues me.

And when it involves politics, freedom, war, or gets in the way of science, someone has to point out from time to time that the emperor has no clothes.


No.

But I hope for people to work to constantly improve themselves in terms of empathy, reason, and things like that.

Thats cool, peace!

 

[logician]

This was a late addition to the Apostles Creed (which is why the United Methodist Church leaves that phrase out), and in any case, it says nothing about eternal punishment in the creed. There is more than one interpretation of the word "hell." It is a doctrine that has developed over the centuries.

Many churches allow a wide degree of interpretation of the creeds. United Methodists aren't even required to subscribe to every word of the creed (and I suspect this is true in practice of most denominations). They recite the creed as a tradition, a way of uniting with generations of Christians who have recited the same words, not as a binding dogma.

Even in the Roman Catholic Church, dogmas are ultimately mysteries into which humans will never fully enter. Dogmas are infallible, but doctrine must interpret dogma, and doctrine is fallible.

So your contention is Christians recite creeds they don't believe?

interesting.

 

[Etritonakin]

These three terms have different meanings and must be recognized.



sorry bud that is the later definition

Gehenna refers to the "Valley of Hinnon", which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It was a place where people burned their garbage and thus there was always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation (such as people who committed suicide) were thrown there to be destroyed

Hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




refers both to the ancient Greek underworld, the abode of Hades, and to the god of the underworld

Hades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




sorry again, hades started out in the The Septuagint

Septuagint - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


your close, your just running off later material that is vague and lumps everything together

Yes -Gehenna is actually a valley -and I agreed that it was a later definition. That's what I said. When it was used in the bible to describe the lake of fire, it is so people could have some reference and understanding. It was not used to imply that people would be cast in that actual valley later -as they were at the time.

Again -as HADES/SHEOL are concerned -as I said -AS IT RELATES TO THE BIBLE. I did not say they didn't have other meanings prior to -during -or after the times of the writing of the books of the bible -but "AS THEY RELATE TO THE BIBLE" -they mean the grave.

Please read my posts carefully before replying.

You must understand that the languages in which the books of bible were written are not perfect. They are imperfect languages expressing a perfect truth.
Words can have many meanings, and even gain or lose meanings over time.

Fortunately, God will soon give us a perfect language based on his perfect knowledge -rather than expressing his truth to us in our imperfect languages
(Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.)
-which form and change over time and are based on our limited perspective and understanding -and which do not always directly translate!

Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Hell is a typical example of emotional blackmail by threatening them with some imaginary punishment in the afterlife "you stay with us or else."

 

[Etritonakin]

The lake of fire isn't very different from prison, death row or execution -though no mistakes are made. For some on earth, the thought of going to jail or being executed is enough to prevent them -so fearing to do evil can be of benefit -but they should truly want to do good.

God is even more forgiving than men -and can truly know if one is rehabilitated (has truly repented). Men see no choice but to execute some people and can not know if they are no longer a threat. They will be resurrected and go before God at the judgment -and some will repent then. However, if some utterly refuse to not destroy -and cannot be changed -God will execute them.

Psa 69:33 For the LORD heareth the poor, and despiseth not his prisoners.

Psa 146:7 Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The LORD looseth the prisoners:

Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[Penumbra]

The lake of fire isn't very different from prison, death row or execution -though no mistakes are made. For some on earth, the thought of going to jail or being executed is enough to prevent them -so fearing to do evil can be of benefit -but they should truly want to do good.

God is even more forgiving than men -and can truly know if one is rehabilitated (has truly repented). Men see no choice but to execute some people and can not know if they are no longer a threat. They will be resurrected and go before God at the judgment -and some will repent then. However, if some utterly refuse to not destroy -and cannot be changed God will execute them.

So God will destroy those who refuse to not destroy?

 

[Etritonakin]

Yes -and more righteously than a human judge condemns to death a serial killer -though God is able to rehabilitate many we have condemned to death!

Isa 46:8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 

[outhouse]

God will soon

have they not used this statement since the bible was written??

its been 2000+ years since that was written, what would you consider soon? next year? 1000 years a million?

Did they not think that the earh would end soon justifying the coming of gods kingdom?

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Scaring little kiddies with Hellfire is definitely a form of child abuse IMHO, and all those nightmares I had as a child should have been totally unnecessary as I had suffered through them of the basis of a complete lie.