Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
Sugar-free candies.
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Is Hell Necessary To Christianity?
- Thread starter Storm
- Start date
Sugar-free candies.
waitasec
Veteran Member
i think the idea of hell is essential. jesus explains why...
luke 16: 19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
luke 16: 19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Not in the passage you quoted, He doesn't.
waitasec
Veteran Member
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
All He said was that it was there. He didn't say why.
Why do you think it's "essential?"
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
It actually does -as all who have ever lived will be resurrected, and be given the opportunity to live forever (contrary to some people's beliefs). Notice they are judged according to their works -not what they believed while alive.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished........................
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Technically, God's law requires death for sin -though sin would cause death, anyway -and Christ -never having sinned -qualified to pay that penalty in our stead.
More important than whether or not it was technically necessary is the fact that an immortal being became like one of the creatures he created, under instruction from the Father -learned what it was like to be one of us firsthand so he could represent us better before the Father -and showed his love for us by dying for us when it was not required of him due to his own actions. It was mostly so that we could see by this act that we were that important to them.
Only a few actually saw the event, but everyone will eventually see him in person!
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waitasec
Veteran Member
it is essential because of the alternative for the unbelievers.
yes he said it was there...and that is also the why...
it is there and it is not avoidable unless.. john 3:16
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
You're not making any sense. Rephrase, please?
waitasec
Veteran Member
you're right, was that english?
in john 3:16 the believer will not perish...but have everlasting life
i understand that as not going to hell...vs 19 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of Gods one and only Son.
that is why hell is necessary... it's there used as a threat for you to believe in jesus
why is hell the alternative? because hell is used as a threat. "believe or else". one cannot avoid death but one can avoid hell.
hell is necessary because it's using fear of the unknown as the linchpin for belief in jesus.
a tellingly disastrous foundation for faith...
waitasec
Veteran Member
in the eye of the beholder hell isn't a threat it's a consequence but looking from a distance it is clearly a threat because of the conditions that are in place.
since the christian jews were now recruiting non jews, the idea of hell (hades in the gospel of luke) was a familiar idea to the greco roman audience.
death is real. it is unavoidable. that is why you can't use it as a threat. fear is a tool, not hell necessarily, so the fear of hell goes beyond death.
what is the purpose of hell? to control as many people as you can for power.
As a theologically-minded Unitarian Universalist, I've been following the thread Why is universalism heresy? with great interest.
Several folks have expressed the thought that, without Hell, Christianity falls apart completely.
I don't get it.
If you share the opinion above (and are willing to defend it), kindly explain why you think eternal damnation is the lynchpin of Christianity.
Furthermore, if something so ugly is so important to the religion, doesn't that make the religion itself despicable?
ETA: Penguin reminded me that some people have milder understandings of Hell, like separation from God. I was assuming people were talking about the classical fire and brimstone and torture. Please be specific in your response.
Operating from the assumption that we are talking about the hellfire and brimstone type of hell, the church I was raised in (and subsequently left as a late teenager, thank Thor) preached that everyone was doomed to hell fire and eternal burning unless saved by Jesus. One had to ecstatically announce one's acceptance of Jesus as one's savior, be baptized, and frequently rededicate oneself to Jesus (usually vocally and typically weekly) in order to avoid going to hell.
Operating from that perspective of christianity, then yes, Hell is a necessary component of christian theology. Being that the premise of christianity, as I understand it, is that Jesus came and "died for our sins" to save us from eternal torture, the eternal torture part of the religion is absolutely required.
Those denominations that don't espouse eternal torture but instead some other variant (separation from God, finite punishment, final death etc) of "Hell" truthfully, I am unsure how the substitutionary atonement aspect of the religion is justified. If one removes the threat of hell fire and eternal torture, how does one justify the necessity of the sacrifice conducted by Jesus?
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
A threat is to counterbalance an offer.
Hell is eternal death, just as heaven is eternal life.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Wait, are you talking about oblivion? Because that's not the idea I was arguing.
linwood
Well-Known Member
I think the LDS afterlife theology is solid evidence that the concept of "hell" in any form is not necessary for Christianity.
The only thing I can think of that would be a load bearing column for Christianity is the death, rise, & ascension of Christ.
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
I'm not talking about oblivion. No, that's the death of the body with absolutely nothing to follow. That's cessation of consciousness. That's the death of the soul along with the body.
Oblivion would negate both heaven and hell.
If there is a Newtonian principle governing the conservation of matter, why shouldn't be there something similar for the conservation of consciousness?
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Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Yes.
Not necessarily. The saved could live forever, while the rest of us just don't.
Makes sense to me, but let's stay on topic.