Is Hell permenant?

[Dreamwolf]

What if it wasn't permenant, would that change your mind at all? What if it was a place to repent of your sins, and then return the Father; something similar to when a child gets grounded, they go to their room, think about what they've done and come back out.

Boy I hope that quote thing worked ...

Anyway ... you description of what Hell could be sounds familiar. I remember reading those characteristics only it was talking about purgatory (sp) not hell. It was believed that if you sinned in life you went to purgatory to live and either repent your sins, or live and prove you could get past the temptations that led you to sin. If you succeeded in this you would end up in Heaven, if not you would end up in Hell for all of eternity. In a manner of speaking, it would be a second chance. I personally don't believe in Hell, at least not the popular deffinition of it at any rate. I think the definition of Hell is very individual, Hell could be anything from breaking a nail to an eternity of burning and paying for sin.

 

[James the Persian]

Because it says eternal/for ever, not "for ever, but if your good, you can get out" Could i ask, what leads you to say that hell isnt forever, other than what LDS doctrine says? What i mean is, do you see it as only an LDS doctrine or do you see it in the bible?

Actually, it doesn't say eternal at all. The Greek used literally means 'unto the ages of ages', which is usually translated into English as forever and ever or eternally but, in fact, does not preclude at all the possibility of it simply being an extremely long time. This is why Origen (who spoke Greek) felt himself able to teach apokatastasis and why St. Gregory of Nyssa (likewise a Greek speaker) and others have felt able to hope that all might one day be saved. It is always unwise to make dogmatic assertions based on a less than accurate English translation.

Now, I happen to believe that hell is eternal, but that that its nature is rather different from its portrayal in western Christianity. As I believe that heaven and hell are actually different experiences of one and the same thing, it stands to reason that both, or neither, are eternal. The fact that I adhere to the former view doesn't, however, mean that I believe anyone will necessarily suffer in hell eternally. I find myself sharing St. Gregory's hope and even being tempted to follow in the example of St. Isaac the Syrian and pray for the repentance of Satan and his demons, however unlikely that may be.

James

 

[Dreamwolf]

I thought a bit of humor should be added in this thread so I will tell you all something my mother said about me along time ago (and still says it). She is a dedicated Southern Baptist, she doesn't say it in a mean way, just for humor.

I will be stuck in purgatory forever because Heaven deffinitely won't want you and The Devil would be to scared you would try to take over to let you in.

LOL ... now a good friend found a quote recently that goes "It is better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." I would happen to agree with that sentiment. I think Heaven would just be to happy for me ... I don't think I could contend with all the brightness and happyness constantly ... it would drive me nuts. I need dark and quiet every so often ...

My personal believe is that when we die our spirits go into a time of rest and recooperation before we are born again. There are simply to many lessons to be learned in life to only have one chance at it!

 

[darkpenguin]

My personal believe is that when we die our spirits go into a time of rest and recooperation before we are born again. There are simply to many lessons to be learned in life to only have one chance at it!

My idea kind of expands on your idea yet your idea seems to have given me a greater understanding of mine.
I believe that we live the same life over and over until it's got right and that deja vu is brought on by an important decision that was made in a previous life and maybe gotten wrong.
Your idea has given me the link that i needed to get a grasp on what happens until everyone involved in my life dies, if that makes sense.
Thanks alot!

 

[Kcnorwood]

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as "everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41), "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12), "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a place where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49), a place of "torments" and "flame" (Luke 16:23,24), "everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place of torment with "fire and brimstone" where "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" (Revelation 14:10,11), and a "lake of fire and brimstone" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Revelation 20:10). Jesus Himself indicates that the punishment in hell itself is everlasting - not merely the smoke and flames (Matthew 25:46).

Maybe it's just me but the bible I grew up with says hell is forever! It's a pretty open & shut case here. Unless your one of those where someone didn't like what the bible said & they changed it over the years to fit whatever it is they wanted. There is no escpaing from hell in the bible once your there your butt is cooked ( so to speak)

 

[FFH]

Jesus Himself indicates that the punishment in hell itself is everlasting - not merely the smoke and flames (Matthew 25:46).

Look at the wording Jesus used...

Matthew. 25: 44-46

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.



46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment but the rightwous into life eternal.

Everlasting punishment is another way to describe hell, which is eternal, but the punishment affixed for the ones desctibed in verse 44 and 45 in not eternal or everlasting, but has a definite end.

They will not be punished for eternity. Jesus never said this in verse 46. He only said they would go away into (to a place of) everlasting punishment.

 

[darkpenguin]

I had a thought, how can hell the way religious minded people see it really be that bad? After all why would the 'devil' punish you for doing his bidding on earth?
Either way i'm going to a heaven. that is assuming that i believe in them which i do not!
Guess all those who believe in the heaven=good/hell=bad thing might have it wrong!

 

[darkpenguin]

Wow I can't believe that nobody can come up with a logical argument against this!

 

[James the Persian]

I had a thought, how can hell the way religious minded people see it really be that bad? After all why would the 'devil' punish you for doing his bidding on earth?
Either way i'm going to a heaven. that is assuming that i believe in them which i do not!
Guess all those who believe in the heaven=good/hell=bad thing might have it wrong!

That (the demons with pitchforks and fire image) is a rather naive medieval western view of hell and not at all what the Church actually teaches. The devil is to be punished in hell, not the one doing the punishing (as long as you think of hell as punishment that is, which I don't exactly). It's not even universal Christian belief that heaven and hell are places at all (in fact there are early Fathers that quite clearly state otherwise). In fact really the only dogmatic teaching of the Church prior to the Great Schism was that there was an afterlife, that we would be resurrected inthe body and that some would suffer and others be saved. This still remains the case for us, though Rome added certain other teachings (purgatory for instance).

James

 

[sonflour_2001]

Actually, it doesn't say eternal at all. The Greek used literally means 'unto the ages of ages', which is usually translated into English as forever and ever or eternally but, in fact, does not preclude at all the possibility of it simply being an extremely long time. This is why Origen (who spoke Greek) felt himself able to teach apokatastasis and why St. Gregory of Nyssa (likewise a Greek speaker) and others have felt able to hope that all might one day be saved. It is always unwise to make dogmatic assertions based on a less than accurate English translation.

Now, I happen to believe that hell is eternal, but that that its nature is rather different from its portrayal in western Christianity. As I believe that heaven and hell are actually different experiences of one and the same thing, it stands to reason that both, or neither, are eternal. The fact that I adhere to the former view doesn't, however, mean that I believe anyone will necessarily suffer in hell eternally. I find myself sharing St. Gregory's hope and even being tempted to follow in the example of St. Isaac the Syrian and pray for the repentance of Satan and his demons, however unlikely that may be.

James

Geeze James! :bow: You said exactly what I was going to say! Gosh darn it! Anyway, I've also made note of the differing translations of hell, the greek indicating that hell was simply for a very long time. This would also support the scriptural reference to the when "every knee shall bow" and when "every tongue shall confess his name". Surely when this is being accomplished (I'm willing to bet gradually), God isn't taking away our free will and forcing us to do it. Also note that one only need confess with the tongue and believe with the heart to be saved. This scripture merely tells us that someday everyone will finally be able to love and appreciate God, it's just that for some of us more stubborn ones (i.e. Lucifer), it might take a hell of a lot longer! No pun intended but I couldn't resist.

It's also important to note that Jesus tells us that Hell is any place where he does not reside and heaven is any place where he is. (somewhere in Romans) Combine this with scriptures that mention how we cannot abide in God as long as we abide in sin and we get a very clear view of what hell can be: a place, a state of mind, or an understanding where we purposefully chose to turn our backs on God, or keep him out of our lives with our selfishness. Thus, hell can and probably will be a lake of fire (also note fire can have many different meanings as well...ever notice how you can sometimes feel like you burn when you are ashamed of something), and hell can be on earth and one of our own personal making as well.

Bishop Kallistos Ware once said, "the gates of hell are locked from on the inside."
I don't think God puts us in hell as punishment, I think we put ourselves there and the more we wallow in the filth of our sins the harder it is for us to go back to him. Thus it may indeed take some individuals seemingly forever to get out, but there is no reason to believe that they cannot eventually come back to God, even if they are in hell.

Also remember the time frame we're working with. It may seem like forever to us, but a lot of time is a little for God. Thus, thankfully because of his infinite love, mercy and patience...even the worst of us can come back to him...even if it takes us...seemingly forever.



Dee

 

[FFH]

I had a thought, how can hell the way religious minded people see it really be that bad?

God has allowed me to feel at times the pains of hell or a portion of what it might be like to be in hell and if it's anything like what I felt to the small degree that I felt it I don't want any part of it, not even for minute..

Hell was however prepared to fulfill the demands of justice, as a due punishment for sin and can serve as a negative motivator to bring a person to repentance who wouldn't normally change the direction of their life if there were no consequence for their actions. If there were no punishment for sin the whole world would be in chaos.

I think i've felt what it would be like to be in hell to some degree and It motivates me to avoid hell at all costs. It keeps me going, kind of a negative motivator. It keeps me in the right direction, even if just to get through this life. I know a greater life awaits at the end of this one if we endure this life with all of it's bad stuff.

After all why would the 'devil' punish you for doing his bidding on earth?

The devil is jealous of us because we have bodies and he doesn't. He would destroy us in a second if God allowed him to. The only thing holding him back from completely destroying all of us, is God. God in His mercy lends us our very breath every day in spite of our sins. The is a day of grace for all of us, but then comes judgement when all will be judged according to their works/righteousness and beliefs.

 

[FFH]

ever notice how you can sometimes feel like you burn when you are ashamed of something), and hell can be on earth and one of our own personal making as well.

Bishop Kallistos Ware once said, "the gates of hell are locked from on the inside."
I don't think God puts us in hell as punishment, I think we put ourselves there and the more we wallow in the filth of our sins the harder it is for us to go back to him. Thus it may indeed take some individuals seemingly forever to get out, but there is no reason to believe that they cannot eventually come back to God, even if they are in hell.

Also remember the time frame we're working with. It may seem like forever to us, but a lot of time is a little for God. Thus, thankfully because of his infinite love, mercy and patience...even the worst of us can come back to him...even if it takes us...seemingly forever.

I couldn't have said it any better. Your thoughts seem to be synonymous with mine on this.

Just recently I lost quite a bit of money in the stock market after being home for over a year trading stocks for a living, when I began to feel a fire in my head and throughout my body at times, that's the only way I can describe it. I got the message God was sending me, which was that I needed to get back to work so I could recover financially before I got myself into financial trouble. God uses the pains of hell as a negative motivator so we will do the right thing. We don't have to actually be in hell to experience it's aweful conditions, but He gives us warnings or samples of what if will be like in hell if we don't change the course of our lives in a major way.

 

[darkpenguin]

God has allowed me to feel at times the pains of hell or a portion of what it might be like to be in hell and if it's anything like what I felt to the small degree that I felt it I don't want any part of it, not even for minute..

Hell was however prepared to fulfill the demands of justice, as a due punishment for sin and can serve as a negative motivator to bring a person to repentance who wouldn't normally change the direction of their life if there were no consequence for their actions. If there were no punishment for sin the whole world would be in chaos.

I think i've felt what it would be like to be in hell to some degree and It motivates me to avoid hell at all costs. It keeps me going, kind of a negative motivator. It keeps me in the right direction, even if just to get through this life. I know a greater life awaits at the end of this one if we endure this life with all of it's bad stuff.

The devil is jealous of us because we have bodies and he doesn't. He would destroy us in a second if God allowed him to. The only thing holding him back from completely destroying all of us, is God. God in His mercy lends us our very breath every day in spite of our sins. The is a day of grace for all of us, but then comes judgement when all will be judged according to their works/righteousness and beliefs.

Thats not really convincing enough for me to believe and follow god and to be perfectly honest this 'god' expects way too much of us whereas the Devil really doesn't, we do his work regardless everyday no matter what faith we are.
I think the Devil would be satified enough with the work we do for him whereas I don't think anything is ever going to be good enough for god no matter how much we repent.
Not that it matters to me at all as i'm quite happy with what I think will happen to me and my loved ones when we die, I just thought i'd point out that loophole to all the people who are afraid of going to hell.
The message being - It really isn't that bad and probably would be more fun than a constantly happy heaven!

 

[James the Persian]

Thats not really convincing enough for me to believe and follow god and to be perfectly honest this 'god' expects way too much of us whereas the Devil really doesn't, we do his work regardless everyday no matter what faith we are.
I think the Devil would be satified enough with the work we do for him whereas I don't think anything is ever going to be good enough for god no matter how much we repent.
Not that it matters to me at all as i'm quite happy with what I think will happen to me and my loved ones when we die, I just thought i'd point out that loophole to all the people who are afraid of going to hell.
The message being - It really isn't that bad and probably would be more fun than a constantly happy heaven!

It's only 'not that bad' if you persist in adhering to the peculiar medieval misconception that those in hell are punished by demons. Unfortunately, as I said, this is not what the Church teaches. If you accept that the hell of Christianity exists then it really is all that bad, not that I expect you do.

James

 

[darkpenguin]

It's only 'not that bad' if you persist in adhering to the peculiar medieval misconception that those in hell are punished by demons. Unfortunately, as I said, this is not what the Church teaches. If you accept that the hell of Christianity exists then it really is all that bad, not that I expect you do.

James

Fair enough, if thats what other people want to think then I do feel bad for them, fortunately my mind is free enough not to have to think that way or rely on religion to guide me on my way, I make my own destiny and make my own path as I follow it!

 

[James the Persian]

Fair enough, if thats what other people want to think then I do feel bad for them, fortunately my mind is free enough not to have to think that way or rely on religion to guide me on my way, I make my own destiny and make my own path as I follow it!

There's no need to feel bad for me. My beliefs with regards to heaven and hell are quite different to those of western Christians and I'm quite confident that God is not going to punish anybody with eternal torment (though some of us may punish ourselves in that way). My mind is perfectly free and I certainly don't need to rely on religion to guide me in any way. I believe my faith is the truth and so I follow it, nothing more. As a convert with very chequered past in terms of faith, though, I accept that my reason for believing may be less than usual.

James

 

[Kcnorwood]

I 'm guessing the words FOREVER & EVERLASTING are beyond some people understanding. Funny how when it's in front of your face they will tell you that it doesn't mean that.....

 

[FFH]

Thats not really convincing enough for me to believe and follow god and to be perfectly honest this 'god' expects way too much of us whereas the Devil really doesn't, we do his work regardless everyday no matter what faith we are.
I think the Devil would be satified enough with the work we do for him whereas I don't think anything is ever going to be good enough for god no matter how much we repent.
Not that it matters to me at all as i'm quite happy with what I think will happen to me and my loved ones when we die, I just thought i'd point out that loophole to all the people who are afraid of going to hell.
The message being - It really isn't that bad and probably would be more fun than a constantly happy heaven!

What can I say. other than heaven and hell are real and everything in between. This life is the "Plan of Happiness" and God wants us all to be happy and He does this by allowing us our free agency to choose and beleve the way we want.

 

[Katzpur]

Spirit Prison and Outer Darkness are not the same place as hell/lake of fire in my opinion.

Then we apparently disagree.

Show me a scripture which states these two places are the same place as hell. They may be hellish places but they're not in the same location as hell/lake of fire and brimstone.

I don't know of any scripture that describes either the Spirit Prison or Outer Darkness as a "place" at all, although I think it's safe to assume that Outer Darkness will be an actual place, since many of those who end up there (i.e. everyone except those who sided with Lucifer in the War in Heaven and consequently never received a physical body) will have been resurrected by the time they are sent there.

For instance It would be impossible to preach the gospel in such a setting as hell, hence a place called Spirit Prison, where many will be preached the gospel and be redeemed.

I disagree. The Spirit Prison will be hell for those who find themselves there. Hell can be a state of mind as well as an actual place.

Also Outer Darkness could not be called Outer Darkness if their were flames there, which obviously give off some light.

Well, since I see the phrase "Lake of Fire" as being symbolic and not literal, that's not even an issue, in my opinion. Outer Darkness is, according to my understanding, a place where those who commit the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will spend eternity. They will exist in a place entirely devoid of God's light and truth. I don't think the reference is to physical darkness but to spiritual darkness.

 

[FFH]

Jesus gave an example of the sufferings of the unrepentant when He spoke these words.

LDS scripture
Doctrine and Covenants 19: 16-18

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

I 'm guessing the words FOREVER & EVERLASTING are beyond some people understanding. Funny how when it's in front of your face they will tell you that it doesn't mean that.....

I agree that Hell is everlasting, but at some point Jesus Christ will redeem all, not necessarily into heaven, but into a world of a lesser degree of happiness, according to their works and beliefs.

I suppose not ever having the opportunity to live with God and enjoy all the happiness and blessings He has to offer would be an everlasting punishment of sorts, if that were to be a persons final state of existence in which he or she were consigned to. The thought that you could have lived with God and enjoyed all of His blessings, but chose not too, would be an everlasting punishment in itself. We affix our own everlasting state of misery by listening to the father of lies, who was a liar from the beginning. .

Our own scriptures talk of a state of misery and endless torment from wence there is no return, but that doesn't necessarily mean one has to be in hell to experience this, but in a world of a lesser degree of happiness than heaven no doubt.

You don't have to be in hell for eternity to experience the pains of hell. I'm sure it's possible to experience the pains of hell before going there and after being redeemed from it. I know I've felt the pains of hell to a small degree and so have many others. Many are in a state of misery feeling the pains of hell right now on this earth. We need to pray for these individuals.

Book of Mormon
Mosiah 3: 25

25 And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.