Is Hell permenant?

[Wandered Off]

The thought that you could have lived with God and enjoyed all of His blessings, but chose not too would be an everlasting punishment in itself.

What rational person would knowingly make such a choice? Besides, it looks more as if we are expected to make this choice while certainty is held back from us - yet our eternal destiny is said to depend on this. How can we be reasonably expected to make a choice of such epic proportions in relative uncertainty? That doesn't seem gracious at all, IMO.

 

[FFH]

What rational person would knowingly make such a choice? Besides, it looks more as if we are expected to make this choice while certainty is held back from us - yet our eternal destiny is said to depend on this. How can we be reasonably expected to make a choice of such epic proportions in relative uncertainty? That doesn't seem gracious at all, IMO.

The Spirit of God is given to every man to know good from evil. We make conscious choices knowing this. We will not stand guiltless before God because we didn't know better, but will be consigned to a state of misery knowing we should have repented while we had the chance.

1 Corinthians 12: 7

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Book of Mormon
Moroni 7: 16

For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evill; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

 

[Wandered Off]

We will not stand guiltless before God because we didn't know better, but will be consigned to a state of misery knowing we should have repented while we had the chance.

OK, but if I read correctly, you said it was everlasting torment, and that's not really justice to be consigned to a permanent state of misery for mistakes made during a tiny few years on Earth with uncertain information.

 

[FFH]

OK, but if I read correctly, you said it was everlasting torment, and that's not really justice to be consigned to a permanent state of misery for mistakes made during a tiny few years on Earth with uncertain information.

We are not condemned if we have sinned and then stop sinning, but if we persist in sin until death, we will continue in sin into the next life. We will not stop sinning just because we have kneeled down before Christ, as it states in scripture we will all do at some point in time, but will continue in sin, if we have died in sin.

Revelation 22: 11

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Book of Mormon
Mormon 9: 14

And then cometh the judgement of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still.

There comes a point in this life or the next when we will decide to continue in our sins or repent. if we continue in sin until death we will continue in sin in the next life. Having seen Jesus Christ or knowing heaven exists will not necessarily deter one from sinning.

The conditions of this world are a template for the next, the only thing that will change is our bodies will no longer be subject to death, we will all live in immortal worlds, with differing degrees of happiness or misery, according to the beliefs and principles of Christ's gospel we have adhered to and will adhere to.

 

[Wandered Off]

More than likely if we continue in sin until death we will continue in sin in the next life. Just because we have seen Jesus Christ and know heaven exists for a surety will not necessarily make one want to change his/her ways.

Hmmm... Seems to me such a certainty would be life-altering. Rumored consequences based on faith alone are much easier to dismiss than visible, tangible ones, IMO.

Besides, we are dynamic beings on this planet, and I have no reason to believe we would suddenly be static in the afterlife - unless it would be a stasis that accounted for the permanence of the afterlife. I would think if we were going to establish a "permanent" behavior pattern, we would do so after seeing the certainty of the afterlife, not based on relative ignorance of our very brief stint on Earth.

I guess we'll have to just disagree on that, but I appreciate your perspective!

 

[FFH]

Hmmm... Seems to me such a certainty would be life-altering. Rumored consequences based on faith alone are much easier to dismiss than visible, tangible ones, IMO.

Besides, we are dynamic beings on this planet, and I have no reason to believe we would suddenly be static in the afterlife - unless it would be a stasis that accounted for the permanence of the afterlife. I would think if we were going to establish a "permanent" behavior pattern, we would do so after seeing the certainty of the afterlife, not based on relative ignorance of our very brief stint on Earth.

Very well said and a worthy subject to discuss.

A certain story Jesus told is coming to my mind very strongly, which I highly recommend reading, which will shed some light on this very subject you have brought up, but for now I have to head to work

Story of Lazarus the beggar:
Luke 16http://scriptures.lds.org/en/luke/16/20,23-25#20

 

[Katzpur]

OK, but if I read correctly, you said it was everlasting torment, and that's not really justice to be consigned to a permanent state of misery for mistakes made during a tiny few years on Earth with uncertain information.

According to LDS doctrine, that's not how it works. I can't speak for other Christians.

 

[logician]

"Tell me there is a God in the serene heavens that will damn his children for the expression of an honest belief! More men have died in their sins, judged by your orthodox creeds, than there are leaves on all the forests in the wide world ten thousand times over. Tell me these men are in hell; that these men are in torment; that these children are in eternal pain, and that they are to be punished forever and forever! I denounce this doctrine as the most infamous of lies."
..........Ingersoll, "The Liberty of Man, Woman and Child", 1877​

 

[Kcnorwood]

Jesus gave an example of the sufferings of the unrepentant when He spoke these words.

LDS scripture
Doctrine and Covenants 19: 16-18

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
I agree that Hell is everlasting, but at some point Jesus Christ will redeem all, not necessarily into heaven, but into a world of a lesser degree of happiness, according to their works and beliefs.

I suppose not ever having the opportunity to live with God and enjoy all the happiness and blessings He has to offer would be an everlasting punishment of sorts, if that were to be a persons final state of existence in which he or she were consigned to. The thought that you could have lived with God and enjoyed all of His blessings, but chose not too, would be an everlasting punishment in itself. We affix our own everlasting state of misery by listening to the father of lies, who was a liar from the beginning. .

Our own scriptures talk of a state of misery and endless torment from wence there is no return, but that doesn't necessarily mean one has to be in hell to experience this, but in a world of a lesser degree of happiness than heaven no doubt.

You don't have to be in hell for eternity to experience the pains of hell. I'm sure it's possible to experience the pains of hell before going there and after being redeemed from it. I know I've felt the pains of hell to a small degree and so have many others. Many are in a state of misery feeling the pains of hell right now on this earth. We need to pray for these individuals.

Book of Mormon
Mosiah 3: 25

25 And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.

No offense but your like the catholics yo have your own bible that seems to differ from the rest of everyone else.

 

[James the Persian]

No offense but your like the catholics yo have your own bible that seems to differ from the rest of everyone else.

No, it's the Protestants, not the RCs that have the different Bible. The Reformers threw out OT books that had been accepted as Scripture by the whole Church since the beginning, they didn't add new ones later. The overwhelming majority of Christians throughout history have accepted, and continue to do so, that the Deuterocanon or 'Apocrypha' is Scripture. So far as I'm aware the Mormons use the Protestant Biblical canon and, of course, some other texts such as the Boook of Mormon, in addition to, not as part of, the Bible.

James

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

>Is hell permanent?

IOV, no:

The teachings of the Baha'i Faith say that hell (aka spiritual separation from God) is not permanent because in the Next Life, God, through His Mercy, will aid even those most remote from Him (in the depths of hell) to grow spiritually so that they eventually draw near to Him (aka Heaven).

Best,

Bruce

 

[Kcnorwood]

No, it's the Protestants, not the RCs that have the different Bible. The Reformers threw out OT books that had been accepted as Scripture by the whole Church since the beginning, they didn't add new ones later. The overwhelming majority of Christians throughout history have accepted, and continue to do so, that the Deuterocanon or 'Apocrypha' is Scripture. So far as I'm aware the Mormons use the Protestant Biblical canon and, of course, some other texts such as the Boook of Mormon, in addition to, not as part of, the Bible.

James

Oppps sorry!

 

[SoyLeche]

No, it's the Protestants, not the RCs that have the different Bible. The Reformers threw out OT books that had been accepted as Scripture by the whole Church since the beginning, they didn't add new ones later. The overwhelming majority of Christians throughout history have accepted, and continue to do so, that the Deuterocanon or 'Apocrypha' is Scripture. So far as I'm aware the Mormons use the Protestant Biblical canon and, of course, some other texts such as the Boook of Mormon, in addition to, not as part of, the Bible.

James

You are correct. In the post that was quoted nothing from the Bible was mentioned.

The LDS cannon includes:

The Bible (both Old and New Testaments, without the Apocrapha)
The Book of Mormon (A record of people that left Jerusalem about 600BC and ended up somewhere in the Americas)
Doctrine and Covenants (Revelations received mostly through Joseph Smith)
The Pearl of Great Price (A collection of various writings, from ancient - translated by Joseph Smith - to modern)

 

[FFH]

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as "everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41), "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12), "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a place where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49), a place of "torments" and "flame" (Luke 16:23,24), "everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place of torment with "fire and brimstone" where "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" (Revelation 14:10,11), and a "lake of fire and brimstone" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Revelation 20:10). Jesus Himself indicates that the punishment in hell itself is everlasting - not merely the smoke and flames (Matthew 25:46).

Maybe it's just me but the bible I grew up with says hell is forever! It's a pretty open & shut case here. Unless your one of those where someone didn't like what the bible said & they changed it over the years to fit whatever it is they wanted. There is no escpaing from hell in the bible once your there your butt is cooked ( so to speak)

Okay, I'll try to get to all of these to prove thathell is prepared for eternity for Satan and his angels and the sons of perdition (those who deny the Holy Ghost and deny Jesus Christ after seeing him)

Matthew 25: 41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Yes these will depart into an everlasting fire, but it says nothing about them spending an eternity in hell which is prepared to house only the devil and his angels and the sons of perdition for eternity. Many will spend time in hell but will be redeemed. They will come out of hell but not necessarily to heaven but to a lesser world prepared for them.

Matthew 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Nothing about eternity here, just a description of the fire.

Daniel 12: 12
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Again the same, but to a lesser degree, for instance there is no fire mentioned here.

That's all I have time for now, but will continue evaluating the rest of the scriptures later.

 

[logician]

Is hell permanent?

Well, Bush has stretched it out for 6 years, although it does seem like an eternity.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

i assumed he had the right scripture reference, but apparently not, that's what I get for not checking it myself.

I'll post the correct scripture reference regarding Satan and his angels being cast into the lake of fire, which he was referring to.

I used Rev. 20:15, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire," to counter this which you said,

Excellent scripture which proves Hell is an eternal place of torment reserved only for Satan and his angels.

Obviously the lake of fire not just reserved for Satan and his angels. The "whosoever" refers to people.

Perhaps you are referring to what the literal scriptural definition of hell is which is a place reserved for Satin and his angels. The common use of hell refers to the lake of fire into which hell will be cast.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Edit: Sandy Whitlinger show me a scripture which says the average Joe on the street will burn throughout the eternities in hell because of his sins and because He chooses not to repent and believe in Christ and His teachings.

You can't find one.

You're right. No one goes to hell (technically the lake of fire) because of their sins. They are condemned because they reject Christ. Did you bring this up because of something I said or are you just on a rant?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It's true that those who are not found in the Lambs Book of Life will be thrown into the lake of fire, but it does not say forever.

Would you say then that Matthew 25:46, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal," is irrelevant to this?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as "everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41), "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12), "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a place where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49), a place of "torments" and "flame" (Luke 16:23,24), "everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place of torment with "fire and brimstone" where "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" (Revelation 14:10,11), and a "lake of fire and brimstone" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Revelation 20:10). Jesus Himself indicates that the punishment in hell itself is everlasting - not merely the smoke and flames (Matthew 25:46).

Two things here. First you are describing the lake of fire and not hell. Hell is a place reserved for Satan and his angels and will be thrown into the lake of fire. Next what you are describing is that the lake of fire is eternal but not the people who are thrown into it. Try Matt. 25:46 for a reference to that.

There are probaly a lot more references to those who go to the lake of fire perishing than being there for eternity in torment.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Are the conditions of Hell permenant?

What are these conditions? I have heard several conflicting proposals, most supported in one way or the other by the Bible.

Is there an exit to hell?

I don't see why not. Just like with prison, time-out, or whatever, once you have served your time, you should receive an unconditional release.

Why or why not?

To torture people is extremely unethical at best; to do so for all eternity without a chance at release or redemption is simply off-the-charts wrong. Such a punishment does not fit the crime. Only a sick, twisted, ****ed up being would dare commit such an act.