Is Islam "untrue"?

[England my lionheart]

If so, how do you back your argument?

Hello there everyone. I'd like to start by explaining a bit about myself, so you guys can understand what kind of debate i want to start.

I am a 19 year old muslim. I've just finished high-school (I don't live in the states, but this is the closest analogy).
I love science, especially chemistry. I am very scientific minded, which people often find strange, given that I am a converted muslim. Besides science, I also love philosophy, which actually is how I got into Islam in the first place.

I have been a muslim for about a year now. I converted because (this is not the sole reason, more of a final push) I had an online chat with an Imam (I live in a country with not that many mosques, so i have to seek information online).
My whole life I believed that science and philosophy could easily dismiss religion. However, during my chat with this Imam, I realized that is not quite the truth. I tried to plead my case, and the Imam defended himself very good.
So now, I was in a position where I could neither deny or confirm the truth of the religion. The rest of the story is irrelevant.

What I'd like to achieve with this debate is not necessarily a conclusion.
I hope to achieve greater clarity to wether or not my religion can be dismissed either with logical deduction or scientific proof.
I do not believe in anything other than the Quran, however feel free to discuss other Islamic scriptures and so on.
One thing that I try to live by, is to stay critical of all things. This includes my own religion. And that's the reason for this debate
I hope we can keep it scientific, reasonable and respectfull (for all, not only religious people).

(P.S. sorry if the intro was a bit long :sleep:, but I felt like you guys needed to know something about my background, in order to understand the debate )

EDIT: Sorry I don't know if this is the right topic, otherwise I apologize. I just thought that the Islam DIR, was more for people who actually believe in Islam, whereas I hope people of all faith (and none faith ) will join this debate.

There isn't any evidence that it's true so I would agree with "untrue",there is no evidence that I'll be BBQ'd for doing that,there isn't any evidence that believing or following Islam will be of any benefit,one only has to look at the history of Islam to see that.

 

[Philomath]

There isn't evidence that Islam is "untrue" but there is a lack of evidence for a lot of the things Islam posits.

 

[FearGod]

You don't know your trickster Gods very well, do you?

The most convincing lies are sprinkled among a whole bunch of truths.

So what is your evidences that it may have been brought by a demon and for what purposes.

Do you believe about demons ?

 

[Riverwolf]

So what is your evidences that it may have been brought by a demon

The evidence it was by a demon is equal to the evidence it was by God.

and for what purposes.

Like I said earlier: teh lulz.

Do you believe about demons ?

I believe in Elves, and some Elves, particuarly the Dark Elves, are malicious.

...no, I'm not talking about Tolkein Elves, Santa Elves, or D&D Elves. I mean the Alfar.

 

[FearGod]

I believe in Elves, and some Elves, particuarly the Dark Elves, are malicious.

...no, I'm not talking about Tolkein Elves, Santa Elves, or D&D Elves. I mean the Alfar.

Those aren't demons but just mythologies and folklores and has nothing to do with religion.

 

[voice crying]

Its completely untrue but ppl confuse truth(offends many)&hate. All men can hate under any title but Qoran verses allow violent ppl more excuses to kill ppl seen as opposing/insulting its beliefs. Sadly Muhammad is a false prophet=Allah doesn't exist(Prv30:4)=Islam's a scam(eternal truth can't change).

Before I get involved in anything I research both things about&against it=no regrets later. Islam claims to be the"only"religion, why Islam forbids change of belief. Koran science claims r already in the Bible, seen w/o the Koran, too vague or science cant prove its claim.

Koran denies Jesus is God's Son&died on a cross(the only perfect sacrifice for our sins=Only Jesus can forgive sins)&rose from the dead(some Muslims call Him Messiah but deny His Deity). Israel's God is real-Sons of God are through Isaac not Ishmael. Great doesn't=of God. Allah is generic word for God mostly used by Islam.

Satan uses word"submission"to fool ppl who don't know real Jesus(why ppl r confused-PBUH may"seem"to add respect. Islam claims the Bible proves Islam but Bible's corrupt is nonsense. Muslims/others try to live by God's Law, penalty=death. U can't live w/o breaking God's eternal Law=sin(why we need real Jesus).

Only 1 God can occupy infinity=God of Israel=no other legit gods exist. Its only fully proved b/c Jesus is God's Son&He wasn't talking out 2nor1000s of sides of His mouth=no confusion. Quran distorts Bible truth.

Labels,titles, names, history, # of members&converts, amount of time it existed nor claims made about them(i.e. persecution)means anything. U can name anything anything. Whats practiced makes it whole truth or a lie-dictionary def doesn't always cover God's full def, word usage or exceptions. Jesus/Bible prophets weren't Muslims as Islam claims. Name a dog god-doesn't make it God.

Muslims r told the Bible has many errors, is rewritten, that the Koran is"the"perfect holy book. Bible has errors only if u don't accept Jesus as God's real Son/u dismiss God's Biblical truth. God will give u whats in your heart. Dismiss Jesus, He will harden your hateful heart.

Jesus is the only way to salvation(Acts 4:12=on an personal level)not Islam(God didn't send Muhammad-no new prophets after Jesus=cancels need for new-teaching prophets). Islam cant lead u 2 God, only clear to 1 who knows real Jesus. False teachings cancel all u claim.

When u don't know Jesus, accepting His death, resurrection, true position&Biblical teachings-result=false teachings=kills u& your offspring. Ways"SEEM"right but its end=death(u cant worship in both truth&error).

Religion&spirit of doesn't=the truth, most r built on ideas man likes, r seen as good 2 control masses&agendas(fatal mistakes)=CANT ALL B RIGHT(only 1 Bible, why so many interprs? 2Pet 1:19-21=can't teach what u dont know). Who knows more about a house-the Builder/ppl moving in later?

In history only Jesus said He's the way, truth, life=u can't know God w/o Him(Jn14:6/Acts 4:12/Jn 5:39/10:1,7)=whole truth=all new teaching, other beliefs, from self-proclaimed prophets&teachers r false&godless or Jesus is 1 more false teacher 2 ignore=its all lies=either God knows all or theres no God.

*If Jesus is God's Son then the Qoran-contradicts Bible; LDS/BoM/mormon-no"another testament"; JWs-twisted NWT/Watchtower/Awake; Oc-RCc-Cc; many Protestants-kept Cc wrong format; 7thDA; moonies; Christian Scientists; Scientology; Buddhists; Hindus; others r wrong on Jesus-they demote Jesus 2 prophet &/or good man, 1 way/another. If He isn't God's Son(false teacher)then the Bible&all named above r wrong=false teachers. We can't have it to ways. Theres only 1 Jesus=1 true Gospel=2Cr11:4.

Many believe in but don't know Jesus(Is29:13-even Satan knows Him. A wrong teaching foundation cancels all ur claims=house built on sand. When sand gives way the whole house falls(with all u added. patched, fixed to"appear"better=useless to patch a tire full of holes).

Jesus couldn't do whats in NT w/o fully knowing whole OT(can't w/o God&NT didn't exist yet). Apostles couldn't write NT w/o Jesus having them remember all He did-Lk 24:25-27,45.

God outsmarted us: Reading the Bible(religious or not)u cant find, rightly know Jesus& the Bible w/o His directions-Jn 5:39/10:1,7/3:3,5(Jn 14:6/2Cr3:14/Is 29:11-12~Jewish ppl can't unveil OT w/o Jesus=all gentiles can't=its why many interpretations exist&its called fiction). Jesus came bearing a 2(not3)edged(OT/NT=2 witnesses)sword of division. U can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink.

Jesus' resurrection defeated evil&sin or no one would b saved. Jesus ate food to reassure disciples of connection btwn a Spirit&physical life. If Jesus didn't resurrect&fulfill OT Law all r wasting their time&sin can't be forgiven=eternal Hell.

 

[voice crying]

God doesn't bypass eternal truth-if u do it=no Heaven. If today u find an orig Qoran-proved 2 b a perfect copy of today's Qoran it wouldn't be anymore true than the 1st official text=its not worth paper its written on.

What Jesus taught came from OT(validates NT)-NT explains OT truth-whole truth was from start the same-emphasis on not going beyond whats written(1Cor 4:6)=SEAMLESS garment-whole truth is complete within its pages-Both God/Jesus never change no matter what languages its translated to.

Why would a man born of human man&woman be allowed to replace or hold higher status than 1 born of God which the koran admits about Muhammad vs Jesus? God's truth is forever unchanged while man's religions&gods die with you. Why should God want u 2 live with Him forever if u don't want 2 know Him His way?

 

[Philomath]

Its completely untrue but ppl confuse truth(offends many)&hate. All men can hate under any title but Qoran verses allow violent ppl more excuses to kill ppl seen as opposing/insulting its beliefs. Sadly Muhammad is a false prophet=Allah doesn't exist(Prv30:4)=Islam's a scam(eternal truth can't change).

Like the Bible is completely clean of violent verses insinuating violence.

Only 1 God can occupy infinity=God of Israel=no other legit gods exist. Its only fully proved b/c Jesus is God's Son&He wasn't talking out 2nor1000s of sides of His mouth=no confusion.

Can you prove any of this?

Muslims r told the Bible has many errors, is rewritten, that the Koran is"the"perfect holy book. Bible has errors only if u don't accept Jesus as God's real Son/u dismiss God's Biblical truth. God will give u whats in your heart. Dismiss Jesus, He will harden your hateful heart.

Are you saying the Bible has no errors? If so there are Christians who disagree highly with you.

 

[YmirGF]

Well, partly because of the so called "scientific miracles" of the Quran. Also historians have proven that the Quran is the only holy scripture, which has not been altered throughout history.

Welcome to the nuthouse known as RF, 29dall. Sadly, neither one of these ideas of "scientific miracles in the Qur'an" or that "the Qur'an has been unaltered throughout history" are actually true. The Qur'an was altered to allow for diacritical marks, as well as Uthman's standardization on one specific version. It is true however, that since Uthman, the Qur'an has not changed.

As for the amusing notion of "scientific miracles" in the Qur'an, well, it just isn't so - unless you stretch given version far beyond credulity. To date, I have not heard a single convincing argument about these alleged "scientific" miracles. Heck, even Muslims were not aware of them until Maurice Bucaille wrote about them in "The Bible, The Qur'an and Science" published in 1976. Since that time, the Muslim world has found evidence of new "miracles" almost every other day - and yet the scientific community - is completely unimpressed. Can you explain why scientists are unimpressed with these rambling hypothesizes?

As to the question posed in the thread title Is Islam "untrue"? To be fair, I could not say that it is. It fails short in far too many areas to be in any position to be taken seriously.That does not mean that some very clever people could not delude themselves into seeing genius where in fact there is very little. In that respect they are simply chasing shadows of their own creation. Interpretation is a slippery slope, indeed.

 

[Riverwolf]

Those aren't demons but just mythologies and folklores and has nothing to do with religion.

And I could say the same about Islam's cosmology.

 

[ZooGirl02]

I do believe that Islam is false. I believe it has some truths in it such as its insistence on Monotheism. However, they deny the existence of the Holy Trinity and I believe they say that the Most Holy Trinity is three "gods" when in reality orthodox Christians believe that they are only one God yet three divine Persons. So I believe that they are false when it comes to their rejection of the Most Holy Trinity. I believe they are also false concerning the "prophet-hood" of Muhammad. I believe that Muhammad was not a true prophet but a false prophet. There are quite a few other things that I believe that Islam gets wrong as well.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, partly because of the so called "scientific miracles" of the Quran. Also historians have proven that the Quran is the only holy scripture, which has not been altered throughout history.

There is a problem with trying to verify a religion with science. Religion should hold truth which is inerrant & unchanging. Science doesn't have truth, only observations & theories which are useful in making predictions about behavior of the material world. These theories are all subject to continual revision, & we see throughout history that the most wonderful & seemingly entrenched of them have fallen upon discover of new phenomena. So if a religion comported with all the theories of a given age, then it would fail to do so in any other age. Add to this, religious literature is so poetic in nature, it can be massaged to match just about any theory. This eliminates predictive value of the religion. So whatever faith you have, science will likely neither verify nor debunk it.

 

[LuisDantas]

After browsing the thread, I am still at a loss about those scientific miracles. I keep hearing about them, but somehow they remain elusive nonetheless.

 

[McBell]

Well, partly because of the so called "scientific miracles" of the Quran. Also historians have proven that the Quran is the only holy scripture, which has not been altered throughout history.

Yet the current version of the Koran is not the original version...

Funny that..

 

[Aquitaine]

After browsing the thread, I am still at a loss about those scientific miracles. I keep hearing about them, but somehow they remain elusive nonetheless.

Y' know, for all the years I have been on RF I have repeatedly been told about these Scientific miracles in the Koran, so far I have yet to see a single one be presented in this forum.

 

[YmirGF]

Y' know, for all the years I have been on RF I have repeatedly been told about these Scientific miracles in the Koran, so far I have yet to see a single one be presented in this forum.

You have not been looking too hard then. They come and go with some regularity. :sorry1:

 

[Aquitaine]

You have not been looking too hard then. They come and go with some regularity. :sorry1:

Well, I mean genuine ones which stand up to proper scrutiny.

I've seen lots of subjective and interpreted miracles though!

 

[danieldemol]

I was aware that it burned and a lot was lost. However, I have failed to link the 2 things together. Very thought provoking. Though it is difficult to imagine things like, mountains under the ground, to be something they could've examined back then. But I must admit, that it is a very solid point you make.

Awesome, I love claims about the material world that are objectively examinable.

Questions;
1. Where does it say about underground mountains in the Qur'an?
2. Where are these underground mountains you refer to?
3. Why couldn't ancient cave explorers or miners have known about them?

In Australia in the Jenolan caves, there is an Aboriginal skeleton in the "Pool of Cerberus" cave. From memory when I went on the tour the guide stated that the skeleton is 10,000 years old (obviously much earlier than the life of the Prophet Muhammad).

The skeleton is reffered to on this website under the "Pool of Cerberus" section;

Jenolan Caves

The Grimes Cave mine existed 1900BC possibly earlier, whilst the Lion Cave in Swaziland is carbon dated to 41,000 BC;
Mining - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Grimes Graves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Swaziland National Trust Commission - Cultural Resources - Malolotja Archaeology, Lion Cavern

 

[FearGod]

And I could say the same about Islam's cosmology.

No both are incomparable.

Mythology are imaginary stories but when we say that the universe is expanding,then you can call it a myth if we found out by evidence that the universe is firm and stable,
also you can call that the whole universe described as being just one piece as a myth,if we found out that the universe was never being one piece in any point of time.

The ancient world should regard those information about the universe being one piece and moving outward (expanding) as a myth,but for us,this is the truth as God is.

 

[Riverwolf]

No both are incomparable.

Mythology are imaginary stories

Wrong. Mythology is the highest level of literature attainable. It means that the story has transcendet fiction and become alive, beyond the dual concepts of true or false.

but when we say that the universe is expanding,then you can call it a myth if we found out by evidence that the universe is firm and stable,
also you can call that the whole universe described as being just one piece as a myth,if we found out that the universe was never being one piece in any point of time.

The ancient world should regard those information about the universe being one piece and moving outward (expanding) as a myth,but for us,this is the truth as God is.

Wasn't referring to the expanding universe, which hasn't been demonstrated in the Qur'an, yet. The verse you provided is far too vague. Even if it were referring to an expanding universe, I would not put it past the Alexandrian Ubergeeks to have figured it out on their own with their primitive instruments (though it would have been quite the engineering feet to not only create such a device, but make something that would have been lost in the fire).

Besides, I still haven't heard any adequate refutation that it wasn't a demon, an alfar, reporting all this.