Is it moral for God to punish us?

[Augustus]

"The most 'advanced' societies still hold that mankind can be redeemed through violence, and evil can be chased from this world."

Garbage. Seems we have nothing to discuss or share as common ground.

Regards
DL

So the Iraq war didn't happen?

Ok...

 

[Greatest I am]

So the Iraq war didn't happen?

Ok...

To say that the U.S. is an advanced society is rather a huge leap and you had societies as plural and now you focus one one little war.

As I said, no common ground and we are not even on the same page.

You might be right that your kind of knowledge is not worthy of keeping.

Regards
DL

 

[Demonslayer]

My point is that no amount of knowledge is going to change human nature. We are prone to violence, and must accept we always will be.
There is no theology of gradual improvement as we stride towards perfection, we remain the same flawed creatures that we always have been.

Wow, what a tremendously sad outlook on life. We're stuck as violent, flawed creatures and can never improve.

I guess you haven't noticed the improvments we have made over time. The liberites that most people enjoy compared to societies in the past. The widespread abolishment of slavery. The surge of democracy in the world.

It must suck to have no hope for human beings.

 

[Augustus]

To say that the U.S. is an advanced society is rather a huge leap and you had societies as plural and now you focus one one little war.

As I said, no common ground and we are not even on the same page.

You might be right that your kind of knowledge is not worthy of keeping.

Regards
DL

US, Britain, France, Italy, Australia have all been involved in military adventures in the past 10 years in the name of human rights.

My kind of knowledge is not worth keeping? You mean the kind based on all of the available evidence of human history? If you want to live in a happy fairyland with gingerbread houses and lollipop trees, fair enough. Don't pretend it is a rational position to hold though, it's idealistic dreaming.

Can you explain your reasons for thinking that 200,000 years of human history has been erased since the end of WW2? How is knowledge going to save us? By creating more and more destructive weapons but moving past the point that we want to use them?

Wow, what a tremendously sad outlook on life. We're stuck as violent, flawed creatures and can never improve.

I guess you haven't noticed the improvments we have made over time. The liberites that most people enjoy compared to societies in the past. The widespread abolishment of slavery. The surge of democracy in the world.

It must suck to have no hope for human beings.

On the contrary, the only hope for humans is to accept their flawed nature. Idealism is the scourge of humanity, from religious extremism to communism to colonialism to neoconservatism/liberal interventionism - the teleological view of history where mankind is moving towards a final 'perfected' state causes no end of problems.

Only by going back to the view that there is no destination, no 'end of history' can we start to make the most of the hand we were dealt.

You don't save the world through wishful thinking and blind optimism. Until you face the truth, you can't make a society based on how we actually are. Trying to make one based on imaginary foundations, however well intentioned, is doomed to failure.

 

[idav]

US, Britain, France, Italy, Australia have all been involved in military adventures in the past 10 years in the name of human rights.

My kind of knowledge is not worth keeping? You mean the kind based on all of the available evidence of human history? If you want to live in a happy fairyland with gingerbread houses and lollipop trees, fair enough. Don't pretend it is a rational position to hold though, it's idealistic dreaming.

Can you explain your reasons for thinking that 200,000 years of human history has been erased since the end of WW2? How is knowledge going to save us? By creating more and more destructive weapons but moving past the point that we want to use them?



On the contrary, the only hope for humans is to accept their flawed nature. Idealism is the scourge of humanity, from religious extremism to communism to colonialism to neoconservatism/liberal interventionism - the teleological view of history where mankind is moving towards a final 'perfected' state causes no end of problems.

Only by going back to the view that there is no destination, no 'end of history' can we start to make the most of the hand we were dealt.

You don't save the world through wishful thinking and blind optimism. Until you face the truth, you can't make a society based on how we actually are. Trying to make one based on imaginary foundations, however well intentioned, is doomed to failure.

You are assuming a certain nature, flawed. There is no reason to assume a flawed nature. Nature is perfect even without humans. What gets us in trouble is our elevated nature, but that's elevated not flawed.

 

[Augustus]

You are assuming a certain nature, flawed. There is no reason to assume a flawed nature. Nature is perfect even without humans. What gets us in trouble is our elevated nature, but that's elevated not flawed.

I suppose nothing that is natural can be flawed, it is what it is.

Regardless, it is what it is and always has been and won't be changing any time soon.

 

[psychoslice]

Some truth here but badly stated.

An analogy is in order.

Say that your consciousness is a personal computer. A PC.

To have a cosmic consciousness, as you say we are all in, we would have to picture a mainframe computer with all of our P C programs running within it.

We may be able to meld completely with the mainframe programming but we are not completely of it while still able to recognize our own P C program as well as all the other P C programs.

If otherwise, all would meld into the one mainframe program and the personal files would all be lost.

Better to say we are all coherent waves in the ocean that can meld and yet return to the same wave shape we entered the ocean with.

I went to that ocean the one time and returned. If I used your scenario, I could not have returned.

Regards
DL

Yes you can have your way of seeing it, but still prefer my way, but thanks for sharing.

 

[Greatest I am]

Yes you can have your way of seeing it, but still prefer my way, but thanks for sharing.

Your way seems to show us losing out individual consciousness but I guess I read you wrong. Right?

Regards
DL

 

[psychoslice]

Your way seems to show us losing out individual consciousness but I guess I read you wrong. Right?

Regards
DL

Our individual consciousness is secondary to our true inner Consciousness, our individual consciousness is only what is generated from our conditioning and programming. Its like a light bulb that shines, its shining is unique to that particular bulb, but the truth is that the bulb and the shining is secondary to what makes it shine, the electricity is what makes it shine, you could say that the electricity is its true Consciousness, or Source.

 

[Greatest I am]

Our individual consciousness is secondary to our true inner Consciousness, our individual consciousness is only what is generated from our conditioning and programming. Its like a light bulb that shines, its shining is unique to that particular bulb, but the truth is that the bulb and the shining is secondary to what makes it shine, the electricity is what makes it shine, you could say that the electricity is its true Consciousness, or Source.

A subconscious is still a part of our consciousness. You are trying to split two connected units.

You can take light all the way to photons if you like but it is still the accumulation of these that create our one consciousness which will have our ego in it.

What we have started is an endless argument my friend. The East has about 8 definitions for consciousness while the West has only about 4. Reading what you put just tells me you think of our total consciousness as a soul and I just do not use that concept.

Soul to me is mind.

Somewhat like this Gnostic Christian quote says.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/mary.html


For where the mind is, there is the treasure.

The Saviour answered and said, 'He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind which [is] between the two - that is [what] sees the vision...'

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Regards
DL

 

[Unification]

I agree and agree with the bible that it all begins with knowledge.

Regards
DL

Knowledge of something and to know something are very different.

 

[Greatest I am]

Knowledge of something and to know something are very different.

Sure. Everything has levels.

Regards
DL

 

[Unification]

US, Britain, France, Italy, Australia have all been involved in military adventures in the past 10 years in the name of human rights.

My kind of knowledge is not worth keeping? You mean the kind based on all of the available evidence of human history? If you want to live in a happy fairyland with gingerbread houses and lollipop trees, fair enough. Don't pretend it is a rational position to hold though, it's idealistic dreaming.

Can you explain your reasons for thinking that 200,000 years of human history has been erased since the end of WW2? How is knowledge going to save us? By creating more and more destructive weapons but moving past the point that we want to use them?



On the contrary, the only hope for humans is to accept their flawed nature. Idealism is the scourge of humanity, from religious extremism to communism to colonialism to neoconservatism/liberal interventionism - the teleological view of history where mankind is moving towards a final 'perfected' state causes no end of problems.

Only by going back to the view that there is no destination, no 'end of history' can we start to make the most of the hand we were dealt.

You don't save the world through wishful thinking and blind optimism. Until you face the truth, you can't make a society based on how we actually are. Trying to make one based on imaginary foundations, however well intentioned, is doomed to failure.

The only hope for humans is to "change" their flawed inner nature. Nothing external about it. One has to know themselves and change from the inside first. Doesn't matter why or how we have this nature initially and who is to blame initially. It is there and it can be changed and overcome.

Accepting is an excuse, despair... Belief and faith that someone cannot change their nature and living in the past is doomed to failure. Complacency and laziness.

It is also negative thinking and blind pessimism that keeps an individual and the world the way it is. We are only doomed to repeat our own past with this outlook.

 

[psychoslice]

A subconscious is still a part of our consciousness. You are trying to split two connected units.

You can take light all the way to photons if you like but it is still the accumulation of these that create our one consciousness which will have our ego in it.

What we have started is an endless argument my friend. The East has about 8 definitions for consciousness while the West has only about 4. Reading what you put just tells me you think of our total consciousness as a soul and I just do not use that concept.

Soul to me is mind.

Somewhat like this Gnostic Christian quote says.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/mary.html


For where the mind is, there is the treasure.

The Saviour answered and said, 'He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind which [is] between the two - that is [what] sees the vision...'

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Regards
DL

Everything is of Consciousness, but our personal conscious is nothing more than an illusion, just as we see in the hot desert sands the mirage, its there but its not what we thought it was, our life as a mind body organism is the same, our mind and ego are there, but to the greater Consciousness, they are only mirages, not what we believed them to be from our perspective of our senses, our senses are the only tool we have to see the world we live in. So like the wave that emerges into the sea, we also are the same, we are not separate from Consciousness that's true, but one is nothing more than the mirage an and this is what duality is, a mirage.

 

[Unification]

A subconscious is still a part of our consciousness. You are trying to split two connected units.

You can take light all the way to photons if you like but it is still the accumulation of these that create our one consciousness which will have our ego in it.

What we have started is an endless argument my friend. The East has about 8 definitions for consciousness while the West has only about 4. Reading what you put just tells me you think of our total consciousness as a soul and I just do not use that concept.

Soul to me is mind.

Somewhat like this Gnostic Christian quote says.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/mary.html


For where the mind is, there is the treasure.

The Saviour answered and said, 'He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind which [is] between the two - that is [what] sees the vision...'

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Regards
DL

I like much of what you said here.

Soul to me is the accumulation of enough atoms that all of those atoms combined formed one breathing conscious entity.

From stardust one was formed, to stardust one will return.

"Flesh" to me is "mind."

 

[Unification]

I like much of what you said here.

Soul to me is the accumulation of enough atoms that all of those atoms combined formed one breathing conscious entity.

From stardust one was formed, to stardust one will return.

"Flesh" to me is "mind."

The physical body came and evolved from stardust, was/is formed by an accumulation of atoms(souls)... And when the the physical body was/is ripe and ready to inhabit, a breath of life is given(Spirit/photon/conscious mind) An electron is removed from an atom and a positive ion is formed, when that electron is put in another atom, a negative ion is formed. The Eve(subconscious mind) separating/splitting from Adam(conscious mind). The conscious and subconscious becoming one flesh(mind), but two in one. Then the third mind arises after the conscious impregnates the subconscious with a bunch of evil mind babies.. The ego/unconscious. It conflicts with the subconscious mind.

A bunch of atoms and cells making up one giant living organism that is animated.

 

[Greatest I am]

Everything is of Consciousness, but our personal conscious is nothing more than an illusion, just as we see in the hot desert sands the mirage, its there but its not what we thought it was, our life as a mind body organism is the same, our mind and ego are there, but to the greater Consciousness, they are only mirages, not what we believed them to be from our perspective of our senses, our senses are the only tool we have to see the world we live in. So like the wave that emerges into the sea, we also are the same, we are not separate from Consciousness that's true, but one is nothing more than the mirage an and this is what duality is, a mirage.

There is a greater reality. No argument. I have suffered it's touch the one time. That does not make my consciousness any less real.. The P C that uploads it's program into the mainframe and returns with more information than it went in with, is not diminished. It is increased but just as real as when it uploaded.

The consciousness that finds the light absorbs some of it and is not decreased by it. It's core or program was still quite real before being added to.

As in Socrates and his cave, the viewer may not see clearly what is causing the shadows but when he turns, the information gleaned adds to what he thought he knew, it does not create a whole new reality where the shadows had no meaning.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

The physical body came and evolved from stardust, was/is formed by an accumulation of atoms(souls)... And when the the physical body was/is ripe and ready to inhabit, a breath of life is given(Spirit/photon/conscious mind) An electron is removed from an atom and a positive ion is formed, when that electron is put in another atom, a negative ion is formed. The Eve(subconscious mind) separating/splitting from Adam(conscious mind). The conscious and subconscious becoming one flesh(mind), but two in one. Then the third mind arises after the conscious impregnates the subconscious with a bunch of evil mind babies.. The ego/unconscious. It conflicts with the subconscious mind.

A bunch of atoms and cells making up one giant living organism that is animated.

I cannot see it that way. To me, you have complicated a simple process. Let's do a point by point to see if I can get what you mean.

Let it look like this but with your own logic trail. I will start with star stuff as well. I like to KIS. Keep it simple.

1. Star stuff made my body when born.
2. My brain made my mind/consciousness.
3. Consciousness creates soul which is the telepathic connection to the cosmic consciousness.
4. Visions and enlightenment enters the mind thanks to the tool/soul.
5. Consciousness can find the cosmic consciousness. This is apotheosis. I claim one.
6. My death has my soul send all my consciousness to the cosmic consciousness and the soul just vanishes.

Consciousness and ego are what is all important to life. The following link may be showing where I went.
Apotheosis has been my greatest surprise in life to date. I wish I had proof.

Regards
DL

 

[psychoslice]

There is a greater reality. No argument. I have suffered it's touch the one time. That does not make my consciousness any less real.. The P C that uploads it's program into the mainframe and returns with more information than it went in with, is not diminished. It is increased but just as real as when it uploaded.

The consciousness that finds the light absorbs some of it and is not decreased by it. It's core or program was still quite real before being added to.

As in Socrates and his cave, the viewer may not see clearly what is causing the shadows but when he turns, the information gleaned adds to what he thought he knew, it does not create a whole new reality where the shadows had no meaning.

Regards
DL

The shadows only have meaning because we put that meaning to them, and that meaning is whatever we are conditioned or programmed, that will make what we see, but that doesn't mean that it is truth, to the bigger picture its nothing more than an illusion, and that in a way is how it should be so as to live our life as a mind body organism.

 

[Greatest I am]

The shadows only have meaning because we put that meaning to them, and that meaning is whatever we are conditioned or programmed, that will make what we see, but that doesn't mean that it is truth, to the bigger picture its nothing more than an illusion, and that in a way is how it should be so as to live our life as a mind body organism.

Indeed. We all see things darkly. But yes we are all somewhat delusional. May all our delusions not be too far off the mark.

Regards
DL