Is it moral for God to punish us?

[JustWondering]

I and the bible God agree.

Gen3;22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

The bible does say that God is omnipotent and all powerful.

Revelation 19:6
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

I do agree that his power is demonstrably overstated. He cannot even reproduce a true son and can only do a half breed chimera. If one is foolish enough to believe in that literal Jesus that is.

Note that from this rather decent position of God having our morals, Christianity , with their literal reading of the myth, turned a good God into a vile and immoral demiurge.

Regards
DL

So god is powerful enough to create complex life in a complex universe but is not all-knowing. No way to know who will be good or evil until they actually live out their life. I'm not saying free will exists, because it doesn't. Just implying that god may not have knowingly damned people to fail his "test" as you claim.

 

[psychoslice]

Indeed. We all see things darkly. But yes we are all somewhat delusional. May all our delusions not be too far off the mark.

Regards
DL

Yes I agree, for the make is our target.

 

[Greatest I am]

So god is powerful enough to create complex life in a complex universe but is not all-knowing. No way to know who will be good or evil until they actually live out their life. I'm not saying free will exists, because it doesn't. Just implying that god may not have knowingly damned people to fail his "test" as you claim.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This indicates that Jesus had no choice.


If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane and immoral God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

------------------------

That we have a free will limited by nature and physics is quite apparent. Your deciding to reply to this post shows that clearly.
This aside.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Regards
DL

 

[MARCELLO]

Here comes another paradox; suppose that I miss an important flight for an important meeting meanwhile the plane I would take falls to the ground,is this a punishment or a grace or just it may happen?

 

[Greatest I am]

the paradox of freewill if far more confusing than morality of punishment, imo. That being said, there is some idea that Eve and Adam had freewill before eve scarfed the apple. there isn't really an indication of this. there was a commandment, that's all. they clearly had freewill. Lucifer didn't care ,apparently

Free will is the exercise of choosing between conditions or variables. To do so intelligently, one must have knowledge of the variables.

The tree of knowledge is known by thinkers to hold all knowledge of all things and until Adam and Eve ate of it, they did not have the intelligence to be able to choose. If you can come up with anything that is not subject to being either good or evil then you can refute what I just said.

No one has as yet been able to refute this but I remain hopeful.

The bible indicates how stupid A & E were by saying that their mental eyes were closed till after they ate of the tree of knowledge.

They could not have exercised a free choice as they could not have known the variables. The death penalty that God gave would have been meaningless to A & E as they could not know that death was evil to them nor that life was good. If they would have known that life was good then they would have known that eternal life was good and would have eaten of the tree of life first.

Eternal life was the greatest gift but they were too stupid to take it.

Mind you, eternal life without knowledge and wisdom is rather worthless in my b view but to the faithful, it is God's greatest gift.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Here comes another paradox; suppose that I miss an important flight for an important meeting meanwhile the plane I would take falls to the ground,is this a punishment or a grace or just it may happen?

All that is and happens, all history, is based on the vagaries of chance.

The one sperm that created you was one in millions.

Regards
DL

 

[MARCELLO]

All that is and happens, all history, is based on the vagaries of chance.

The one sperm that created you was one in millions.

Regards
DL

I know that very well . But the sperm did not create me, just led me to me who I am, a way of transitioning.

 

[Greatest I am]

I know that very well . But the sperm did not create me, just led me to me who I am, a way of transitioning.

Semantics, but yes, all is in transition in a time line.

The nice thing about being here and now is that we live in the best of all possible worlds, given all the previous conditions.

That can be said at all moments in time.

Regards
DL

 

[MARCELLO]

Semantics, but yes, all is in transition in a time line.

The nice thing about being here and now is that we live in the best of all possible worlds, given all the previous conditions.

That can be said at all moments in time.

Regards
DL

If the verb create is just semantics,then may I ask you what we are doing on this forum? Geessss

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Dear Greatest I Am,

I suspect that in order to be able to assess your claim properly, we need firstly to define what "actions/effects of God" are. Are we for instance assuming that there are actions/effects which are not God's? If so, let us distinguish between "actions of God" and other kinds. Secondly, how does God act? That is, whatever we agree to be acts of God, how are such acts manifested? Can God manifest through anything but us, for example? If so, how? If not so, then we may have to rephrase your question to something like: Is it fair of God to punish us for God's actions?
You may not feel that it makes much difference, but I cannot tackle your question unless I am more clear about what it is that you are truly asking

Respectfully,
Hermit

 

[Greatest I am]

Dear Greatest I Am,

I suspect that in order to be able to assess your claim properly, we need firstly to define what "actions/effects of God" are. Are we for instance assuming that there are actions/effects which are not God's? If so, let us distinguish between "actions of God" and other kinds. Secondly, how does God act? That is, whatever we agree to be acts of God, how are such acts manifested? Can God manifest through anything but us, for example? If so, how? If not so, then we may have to rephrase your question to something like: Is it fair of God to punish us for God's actions?
You may not feel that it makes much difference, but I cannot tackle your question unless I am more clear about what it is that you are truly asking

Respectfully,
Hermit

Then I guess that we will not chat at all.

Others do not seem to have a problem knowing what I am asking.

Regards
DL

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Then I guess that we will not chat at all.

Others do not seem to have a problem knowing what I am asking.

Regards
DL

I see.
What a pity, for it sounded interesting and it is not obvious to me that your original OP is actually being addressed in the thread.
Thank you non the less.

Respectfully,
Hermit

 

[Lyndon]

If you read the bible literally and believe in it's imaginary God, then no other conclusion is possible given the facts.

-------

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This indicates that Jesus had no choice.


If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane and immoral God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

------------------------

That we have a free will limited by nature and physics is quite apparent. Your deciding to reply to this post shows that clearly.
This aside.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Regards
DL

You're criticizing a God you say doesn't exist, how can something that doesn't exist be the cause of so many problems to you, the ultimate straw man, criticizing something you don't believe exists.

 

[Greatest I am]

You're criticizing a God you say doesn't exist, how can something that doesn't exist be the cause of so many problems to you, the ultimate straw man, criticizing something you don't believe exists.

I do not have to believe to view things from a believers POV.

You and I could discuss any fantasy character, Peter Pan for instance, without believing he was real.

If I want to discuss God with a literalist, I can with his belief and from his POV.

Regards
DL

 

[Unification]

I cannot see it that way. To me, you have complicated a simple process. Let's do a point by point to see if I can get what you mean.

Let it look like this but with your own logic trail. I will start with star stuff as well. I like to KIS. Keep it simple.

1. Star stuff made my body when born.
2. My brain made my mind/consciousness.
3. Consciousness creates soul which is the telepathic connection to the cosmic consciousness.
4. Visions and enlightenment enters the mind thanks to the tool/soul.
5. Consciousness can find the cosmic consciousness. This is apotheosis. I claim one.
6. My death has my soul send all my consciousness to the cosmic consciousness and the soul just vanishes.

Consciousness and ego are what is all important to life. The following link may be showing where I went.
Apotheosis has been my greatest surprise in life to date. I wish I had proof.

Regards
DL

Knowledge of all this doesn't matter so what I say is meaningless unless one can find, experience, and know the way of internal being themselves.

We can't leave out the most important parts... The heart, blood, and water in the body. Blood, blood plasma, and water are the carriers of light/electronagnetic energy within. Carriers of information as flowing streams of consciousness, energy, and matter are all interconnected into living cells within a human. The red blood cell torus and the cosmic torus.

The mind develops from the constant splitting and separating and bonding of atoms and living cells in the brain. Knowledge of the conscious mind is also meaningless. It is just a paradigm to explain. One must seek to know themselves from within, seek to know from the heart. One learns from the heart by shutting the mind down. Being still of mind. Thoughts and ideas (seeds) are planted in minds, but the birth to "apotheosis" begins from the heart and solar plexus. The center of our being.

 

[JustWondering]

If you read the bible literally and believe in it's imaginary God, then no other conclusion is possible given the facts.

-------

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This indicates that Jesus had no choice.


If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane and immoral God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

This only shows that he knew there would be humans that would not live up to his standards. The bible warns that those that fail to get into heaven will be destroyed. So the primary punishment for not being willing to play by god's rules is to not be a part of his kingdom. Do you really consider not being forced to live in a way and place not of your choosing by a person you hate a horrible punishment?

If god created humanity in a way that intentionally damned specific people to destruction and he knew this a case could be made that he is sadistic and/or insane but you have yet to show the god of the bible intentionally did this or even had the ability to do this.

That we have a free will limited by nature and physics is quite apparent. Your deciding to reply to this post shows that clearly.
This aside.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Regards
DL

I completely agree that being punished for acting according to the nature we are given is not fair, from our POV. However, from the bible god's POV, what HE determines is fair is fair. IMO, if the bible god exists, we are nothing more than pets. Right now is the pet shop phase. He is looking to see which of us he wants to take home with him.

 

[Greatest I am]

Knowledge of all this doesn't matter so what I say is meaningless unless one can find, experience, and know the way of internal being themselves.

We can't leave out the most important parts... The heart, blood, and water in the body. Blood, blood plasma, and water are the carriers of light/electronagnetic energy within. Carriers of information as flowing streams of consciousness, energy, and matter are all interconnected into living cells within a human. The red blood cell torus and the cosmic torus.

The mind develops from the constant splitting and separating and bonding of atoms and living cells in the brain. Knowledge of the conscious mind is also meaningless. It is just a paradigm to explain. One must seek to know themselves from within, seek to know from the heart. One learns from the heart by shutting the mind down. Being still of mind. Thoughts and ideas (seeds) are planted in minds, but the birth to "apotheosis" begins from the heart and solar plexus. The center of our being.

Learn by shutting the mind down?

Take this analogy to heart. You do not add to a computer file, by shutting down the computer.

Your mind learns best when you activate both hemispheres.


I do agree that you have to learn by going within. That is known to me as Gnosis.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

This only shows that he knew there would be humans that would not live up to his standards. The bible warns that those that fail to get into heaven will be destroyed. So the primary punishment for not being willing to play by god's rules is to not be a part of his kingdom. Do you really consider not being forced to live in a way and place not of your choosing by a person you hate a horrible punishment?

If god created humanity in a way that intentionally damned specific people to destruction and he knew this a case could be made that he is sadistic and/or insane but you have yet to show the god of the bible intentionally did this or even had the ability to do this.




I completely agree that being punished for acting according to the nature we are given is not fair, from our POV. However, from the bible god's POV, what HE determines is fair is fair. IMO, if the bible god exists, we are nothing more than pets. Right now is the pet shop phase. He is looking to see which of us he wants to take home with him.

Sure but if he does not like where his pets piddle and does not show them better then he is a **** poor pet owner and is not fit to judge the morals of his pets and would show that he has none if he later punishes the pets he has ignored.

Regards
DL

 

[Demonslayer]

Here comes another paradox; suppose that I miss an important flight for an important meeting meanwhile the plane I would take falls to the ground,is this a punishment or a grace or just it may happen?

Lawdy lawd, it's a miracle!

 

[MARCELLO]

Lawdy lawd, it's a miracle!

A miracle for one guy but a disaster for 220 guys.