Is it Possible to Prove Being the Messiah?

[PruePhillip]

Consulting holy writ, in this case Wikipedia, I'm unsurprised to learn that the messiah:

[1] is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil,
[2] is a human leader,
[3] is physically descended from the paternal Davidic line through King David and King Solomon,
[4] will accomplish (inter alia) -

[4a] the unification of the tribes of Israel,
[4b] gathering of all Jews to Eretz Israel,
[4c] the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem,
[4d] the ushering in of a Messianic Age of global universal peace, and
[4e] the annunciation of the world to come.​

So if those are the rules, I can see why non-Christians might not think Jesus has earned the title 'messiah' / 'anointed one' / 'Christos'.

And I can't see any basis on which Christians might think he's indeed earnt it. "Paul says so" won't really cut it, will it?

For example, he's not [1]. If [2] he was a human leader, which Trinitarians deny, he didn't accomplish any of [4] and it's now two millennia too late to fix. (If anyone can quote Jesus giving a meaningful blueprint of 'The world to come', I may have to except [4e] from that statement.) The Jesus of Mark is expressly not descended from David [3], while the Jesuses of Paul, Matthew, Luke and John are.

And so on.

No, it's not "Paul said so"
Paul was a relative late-comer to the story of Jesus.
And the Wiki account is a half truth - for the Old Testament gives TWO Messiahs
1 - Redeemer (the lamb of God, rejected by the Jewish, who gives his life for the atonement)
2 - The earthly King who delivers Israel.

There are numerous verses which link these two. My favorite being that of Zechariah 9 and 12
which show the Jewish people mourning that their Savor is the one they had crucified.

 

[PruePhillip]

Christians have made it worse by trying to change Jewish scripture to fit Jesus.

Methinks you have been indoctrinated by those who
want to change the bible to fit the Jews.

nb the Jews lost their Promised Land, their Temple, their
Priesthood, their Freedoms and their Credibility after
rejecting their Messiah. They admit freely this happened
because they sinned.
Their sin was that they wanted the Messiah King. They
felt no need for the Messiah Redeemer because they did
not see their sin.

Jacob told them so. So did Moses. And Daniel. And Zechariah.
And David.

 

[wizanda]

Wiz can correct me if I am wrong, but he does not consider what he posts to be an opinion, he considers what he posts to be fact.

I've got great faith "I do not know", show me evidence contrary, and I will re-examine everything to reassess it.

I do state 'In my opinion ' on every post for forum rules, and at the end of the day, it is just one subjective opinion of many; only when something is witnessed by more than one of us, do we start quantifying it as objective.

In my opinion.

 

[blü 2]

Paul was a relative late-comer to the story of Jesus.

I respectfully demur. The earliest time in history we meet Jesus is with Paul.

And the Wiki account is a half truth - for the Old Testament gives TWO Messiahs
1 - Redeemer (the lamb of God, rejected by the Jewish, who gives his life for the atonement)
2 - The earthly King who delivers Israel.

What part of the Tanakh tells us about "the lamb of God, rejected by the Jewish, who gives his life for the atonement" and identifies him as "the messiah"?

There are numerous verses which link these two. My favorite being that of Zechariah 9 and 12 which show the Jewish people mourning that their Savor is the one they had crucified.

Again I seek your illumination ─ which specific verses in Zechariah 9 and 12 say that?

 

[wizanda]

So if those are the rules

They are not the rules, they are Rabbinic Jewish eisegesis ... In other words they are looking for the best bits, and making everything else fit with it.

The Messiah by definition is contextual by the usage of the word Messiah in the texts; Isaiah 52:13-14 (it should say anointed, not marred) paraphrased David in Psalms 89:19-21, and thus David was Yeshua.

In my opinion.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

The Messiah is an ongoing process

Yes!

And I think it is something inside us balancing innate response mechanisms and the uniqueness of the human individual experiencing the Universe.

 

[PruePhillip]

I respectfully demur. The earliest time in history we meet Jesus is with Paul.

What part of the Tanakh tells us about "the lamb of God, rejected by the Jewish, who gives his life for the atonement" and identifies him as "the messiah"?
Again I seek your illumination ─ which specific verses in Zechariah 9 and 12 say that?

Paul had a vision of Jesus in Acts. We don't know how many years after the
crucifixion this happened. He was just one of nearly 200 preachers we read of
in the New Testament. He's significant to us because of his letters survived.

Zechariah 12.
And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit
of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they
have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep
bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

Zechariah 9
Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O Daughter of Jerusalem! See,
your King comes to you, righteous and victorious, humble and riding on a donkey, on
a colt, the foal of a donkey. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the horse
from Jerusalem, and the bow of war will be broken. Then He will proclaim peace to the
nations; His dominion will extend from sea to sea, and from the Euphrates to the ends
of the earth. As for you, because of the blood of My covenant, I will release your
prisoners from the waterless pit

 

[Spirit of Light]

A question that arises is. If or when the Messiah (Jesus) does the second coming would not be in Israel or in that area? As far as i know Wizanda you are located in Britain? so does not make it difficult to say you are Messiah?
A second question that arises is: If Messiah comes/has come, would it not be on the news all over the world as a prof for Abrahamic religions?

Or maybe I really do not understand this Messiah coming at all?

 

[sooda]

Methinks you have been indoctrinated by those who
want to change the bible to fit the Jews.

nb the Jews lost their Promised Land, their Temple, their
Priesthood, their Freedoms and their Credibility after
rejecting their Messiah. They admit freely this happened
because they sinned.
Their sin was that they wanted the Messiah King. They
felt no need for the Messiah Redeemer because they did
not see their sin.

Jacob told them so. So did Moses. And Daniel. And Zechariah.
And David.

Neither Daniel nor Zechariah wrote about Jesus,

Since you won't study the prophets, perhaps you should focus on the word Redeemer???

 

[PruePhillip]

Neither Daniel nor Zechariah wrote about Jesus,

Since you won't study the prophets, perhaps you should focus on the word Redeemer???

From Job. I parsed the sentence, "I know that my Redeemer lives, and he shall stand on the earth in the latter day."

I… not someone else, me

Know… not believe, not think, not suppose, but know

My… not someone else's, mine

Redeemer… not a king, not a warrior, not a philosopher, he who pays the price we should pay

Lives … not did live, not will live, but live as in now

He … coming as a man

Shall… not maybe, not possibly

Stand… not recline, lie down - but stand for something

Earth … here, this place

Latter day… in the future - for Job this about 500 to a thousand years before Jesus. Isn't that marvelous?

 

[JJ50]

This comment is like walking into a discussion about whether green tea or black tea is superior and saying "Tea sucks, I prefer drinking kefir".

No it isn't, there is no verifiable evidence any god

From Job. I parsed the sentence, "I know that my Redeemer lives, and he shall stand on the earth in the latter day."

I… not someone else, me

Know… not believe, not think, not suppose, but know

My… not someone else's, mine

Redeemer… not a king, not a warrior, not a philosopher, he who pays the price we should pay

Lives … not did live, not will live, but live as in now

He … coming as a man

Shall… not maybe, not possibly

Stand… not recline, lie down - but stand for something

Earth … here, this place

Latter day… in the future - for Job this about 500 to a thousand years before Jesus. Isn't that marvelous?

If any of that was true, how ghastly!

 

[wizanda]

Which of the following was fulfilled in Jesus?

[1] is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil,

Tho Yeshua healed with the Holy Annointing Oil, he wasn't officially Anointed as King of Israel, and never was meant to be, he was meant to be killed by the Leaders (Zechariah 11, Isaiah 53).

[2] is a human leader,

Even Maimonides goes into how if we're no longer to die in the Messianic Age, how will we have these corruptible human bodies, so it is a flawed assumption to perceive the Messiah has to be a human leader.

[3] is physically descended from the paternal Davidic line through King David and King Solomon,

Yeshua was David reincarnated, as the texts prophesied Psalms 89:19-21, Isaiah 52:13-14.

[4a] the unification of the tribes of Israel,

The idea comes from Jeremiah 31, which starts "I will be their Elohim", which is a specific timeline after the Exile among the Gentile Nations (Deuteronomy 28) is over, and after the Lake of Fire Zechariah 13:9, Deuteronomy 29...

Then in Deuteronomy 30 God brings back all the Tribes from the Dead, and that is when it states, "I will be their Divine Being".

[4b] gathering of all Jews to Eretz Israel,

What is stated is those who are holy get brought back, who observed the Curse, and accepted the Marvellous Work of the Lord (we are told to respect Yehoshua - Exodus 23:20-23).

[4c] the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem,

Ezekiel was talking about the 2nd temple design, yet they did it on the cheap instead.

[4d] the ushering in of a Messianic Age of global universal peace, and

All the ungodly get removed before the Messianic Age according to the prophets.

[4e] the annunciation of the world to come.

Yeshua's testimony has been doing that, it starts with establishing the Snare to remove the ungodly (Isaiah 8), then leaving it to catch those who don't question its morality properly (Isaiah 28:9-21), to put them in a Bed of Adultery for removal...

In my opinion.

 

[PruePhillip]

Neither Daniel nor Zechariah wrote about Jesus,

Since you won't study the prophets, perhaps you should focus on the word Redeemer???

So who is this lowly man who was crucified, appearing now as the
King of the Jews? Why do the Jews mourn? What is this covenant
established in his blood?

Christians say this is the Second Coming of Jesus. The covenant
is the New Testament.

 

[PruePhillip]

A question that arises is. If or when the Messiah (Jesus) does the second coming would not be in Israel or in that area? As far as i know Wizanda you are located in Britain? so does not make it difficult to say you are Messiah?
A second question that arises is: If Messiah comes/has come, would it not be on the news all over the world as a prof for Abrahamic religions?

Or maybe I really do not understand this Messiah coming at all?

The bible says the world will see, and mourn, the coming of the Messiah.
But especially, the Jews will mourn because they see Him as the one they
crucified (Zechariah 9 & 12)
Doesn't say where the Messiah will come, only that all eyes will see Him.

 

[Spirit of Light]

The bible says the world will see, and mourn, the coming of the Messiah.
But especially, the Jews will mourn because they see Him as the one they
crucified (Zechariah 9 & 12)
Doesn't say where the Messiah will come, only that all eyes will see Him.

Thank you for clarify this for me

 

[blü 2]

They are not the rules, they are Rabbinic Jewish eisegesis ... In other words they are looking for the best bits, and making everything else fit with it.

The Tanakh gives us the only clues we have to the concept of a 'messiah'. Surely it's correct that Jesus doesn't fit the concept of a messiah and that the Tanakh never prophecies Jesus (at all, let alone as a messiah, Christian retrofitting being inappropriate to a Jewish book)?

The Messiah by definition is contextual by the usage of the word Messiah in the texts; Isaiah 52:13-14 (it should say anointed, not marred) paraphrased David in Psalms 89:19-21, and thus David was Yeshua.

Isaiah 52:13-14 is about the Suffering Servant, the nation of Israel, not about Jesus. Psalm 89:19-21 is about David, who was in fact an anointed king. So I'm not sure that gets us very far.

 

[blü 2]

Paul had a vision of Jesus in Acts. We don't know how many years after the
crucifixion this happened. He was just one of nearly 200 preachers we read of in the New Testament. He's significant to us because of his letters survived.

Well, it would have to be in the 20 years between 30 CE, traditional date of the crucifixion, and 50 CE or later when Paul's letters are written. A thing that should never be forgotten about Paul is his bald statement Galatians 1:11 that everything he tells us about Jesus comes out of his own head. And deducting the four gospellers, who are these other c. 196 preachers of whom you speak?

Zechariah 12.,
And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

How on earth can that be said to have anything to do with Jesus? (Except of course as something which the gospel writers liked to think was a prophecy of Jesus, which is unambiguous retrofitting?)

Zechariah 9
Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O Daughter of Jerusalem! See,
your King comes to you, righteous and victorious, humble and riding on a donkey, on
a colt, the foal of a donkey. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the horse
from Jerusalem, and the bow of war will be broken. Then He will proclaim peace to the
nations; His dominion will extend from sea to sea, and from the Euphrates to the ends
of the earth. As for you, because of the blood of My covenant, I will release your
prisoners from the waterless pit

Eh?

 

[sooda]

So who is this lowly man who was crucified, appearing now as the
King of the Jews? Why do the Jews mourn? What is this covenant
established in his blood?

Christians say this is the Second Coming of Jesus. The covenant
is the New Testament.

Isn't it obvious that Jesus was a holy man who taught non-violent liberation theology as a way of coping with the Roman occupation? … a least based on the Sermon on the Mount and the Olivetti Discourse..

 

[sooda]

Well, it would have to be in the 20 years between 30 CE, traditional date of the crucifixion, and 50 CE or later when Paul's letters are written. A thing that should never be forgotten about Paul is his bald statement Galatians 1:11 that everything he tells us about Jesus comes out of his own head. And deducting the four gospellers, who are these other c. 196 preachers of whom you speak?
How on earth can that be said to have anything to do with Jesus? (Except of course as something which the gospel writers liked to think was a prophecy of Jesus, which is unambiguous retrofitting?)
Eh?

Zechariah was writing about the rededication of the Temple after it was defiled by the Greeks.

 

[sooda]

Thank you for clarify this for me

Zechariah the prophet correctly predicts the fate of Israel’s neighbors during Alexander the Great’s conquest of the Persian Empire in the fourth century B.C. Then in Zechariah 9:9, the prophet describes Judah Maccabees as a type of the future Messiah.