Interesting
But more to the point, welcome to RF, enjoy the ride. And have a cake or few while waiting for the staff canteen to open.
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Is it Possible to Prove Being the Messiah?
- Thread starter wizanda
- Start date
Interesting
But more to the point, welcome to RF, enjoy the ride. And have a cake or few while waiting for the staff canteen to open.
Notthedarkweb
Indian phil, German idealism, Rawls
Thanks! I am really excited to participate more fully in this place!
We are Divine Beings (Elohim - Psalms 82:6)... Reality is the Logos (code from the Source).
This is a crime in many ways: we can not sacrifice a man as an animal offering, no one can give God a ransom, why would God need payment, etc.
Yeshua (Salvation) was tortured by man, to prove how we are down near Hell; as only near Hell could people accept murder as being kosher, and that God wanted it.
It allowed God to fulfil a plan by letting himself suffer them things in Isaiah 53; so it could create a Bed of Adultery in Isaiah 28:9-21, to catch out those who are quick to the spoils, and don't check small print, else they'd have seen that their Christian Covenant with Death was disannulled.
In my opinion.
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
We have numerous religious textual references, and ideas to backup the idea of who is the Messiah; yet as we see with Yeshua's fulfilment of prophecy, some people will go against it through a lack of study...
So is it ever really possible to actually prove it for sure using careful exegesis or are people to argumentative to really listen?
In my opinion.
Though those who believe Christ is the Messiah -and those who do not, yet believe in the Messiah -basically disagree that Christ is described in the following...
“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;"
....all should be able to agree that the above does not describe something good happening to the Messiah -or, at the very least, does not describe some awesome and amazing show that he is the Messiah because he "wins" and everything is OK afterward. After Messiah is cut off, the following is described.... "And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined."
Some do not believe Christ is the Messiah because he did not do the rest of the things the Messiah is described as doing -which WILL be an awesome and amazing show that he is the Messiah because he "wins" and everything is OK afterward.
When these things happen, it will be undeniable to all that the one is Messiah.
Neither believe he is finished fulfilling prophecy -but all should focus on righteousness regardless of present understanding.
Messiah will save and liberate "the Jews" regardless of whether a particular individual believes or understands -and "Jews" means the house of Judah FIRST (The house of Judah and the house of Israel were separated). Other prophecies refer to how the House of Israel (sometimes called the "lost ten tribes) will be reunited with Judah in the holy land.
"The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah."
The above does not specify Judah as opposed to the house of Israel, but those who inhabit the area around Jerusalem are primarily of the house of Judah -and that is specifically where Messiah will defend them against much of the world in no uncertain terms.
The following things precede the above quote -and have already been/are being fulfilled...... "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people:" "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem."
and this is next... essentially the whole world being gathered against Jerusalem (close neighbors first -followed by others). "all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God."
...and this is the very obvious way that Messiah will defend Jerusalem.... (think the one Moses saw the back parts of standing on the cloven mount of Olives)
"For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah."
"And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour"
The point being that there will be no question who is Messiah at that point.
Those who are against "the Jews" might be offended by the above, but God will have allowed those in modern day Israel to be adversely affected partly because of their "turning of things upside down"... (God is equal -not a respecter of persons but of righteousness)....
"And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision"...................."so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.
................"Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding"
.............."Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?"
Furthermore, there is one thing that happens on a human level -such as all of Israel inhibiting the area around Jerusalem -and another thing that happens on an eternal/immortal level.
Many of ALL NATIONS will already have been made immortal (described in more detail the New testament) -beginning to reign on Earth with the Lord/Messiah -even as the above is taking place.
Many focus on what will happen on the human level -and do not understand the eternal/immortal level. Humans will continue and repopulate the Earth -eventually to be made immortal also -and Israel will actually benefit and bless other nations as they do inhabit the area around Jerusalem -but ALL NATIONS will already be represented among those already made immortal.
God is equal.
God will bless the houses of Judah and Israel in equal proportion -and more so -to his allowing them to be cursed and purified by extreme hardship -but it is actually God's intent to bless all peoples THROUGH and by all of Israel. That is why Israel was to be made a "peculiar nation" in the first place.
"And those from a strange land who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him and to love His name, to be His servants, and keep the Day of Rest holy, and keep My agreement, even those I will bring to My holy mountain and give them joy in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and gifts will be received on My altar. For My house will be called a house of prayer for all people.” The Lord God Who gathers the people of Israel from other lands says, “I will gather yet others to them, besides those already gathered.”"
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There are errors in most Bible translations back to Babylon, as if we take Isaiah 46:9 as a standard, that El (God) is not like the Elohim (Divine Beings/Archangels)...
Yahavah (H3068) Elohim (H430) is a Divine Being; often translated as Lord God...Whereas he is Head of the Archangels who created reality, like in Zoroastrianism, etc.
People have confused the 24 Elders that Surround the Throne of God (the Divine Council (Elohim)), as being demigods in the past (Polytheism) or one being above the others (Henotheism).
The Source (El) is 100% pure mathematics, and is beyond form; thus it is above the form of the Divine Council (Elohim), who are the wisest beings in the reality.
In my opinion.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
God has more than one form. [What is called polyform.There are errors in most Bible translations back to Babylon, as if we take Isaiah 46:9 as a standard, that El (God) is not like the Elohim (Divine Beings/Archangels)...
Yahavah (H3068) Elohim (H430) is a Divine Being; often translated as Lord God...Whereas he is Head of the Archangels who created reality, like in Zoroastrianism, etc.
People have confused the 24 Elders that Surround the Throne of God (the Divine Council (Elohim)), as being demigods in the past (Polytheism) or one being above the others (Henotheism).
The Source (El) is 100% pure mathematics, and is beyond form; thus it is above the form of the Divine Council (Elohim), who are the wisest beings in the reality.
In my opinion.
Now, I understand your argument, because of the wording, however, as a polyform God, that statement [verse, is also true.
So yes obviously the texts have been misinterpreted , however since we know that the Lord is called God, traditionally, then a separation of the aspects does not make sense, religiously. 'Lord my God', so forth. In other words, these aren't separate beings, these are aspects of God[singular.
Jesus with us, Matthew 1:22-25
Means 'Lord with us', the spirit of the Lord aspect, thusly, of God, with us.
•
Thusly, we have
God [singular
The Tetragrammaton[personal aspect
Jesu God[human aspect of God
You can derive something else, however then you have to ignore tradition, and, enter polytheism.
•
If you call the Tetragrammaton an angel, then Jesus is the human aspect of God, and the Tetragrammaton, is a separate being, an angel.
•••
Now, obviously we must consider tradition outside of our theologically based traditions, however, those traditions do not derive what I would consider a good argument, regardless of who wrote them. We also go by what is evidenced, and traditional from a certain perspective, not being deterred by other beliefs.
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sooda
Veteran Member
There are errors in most Bible translations back to Babylon, as if we take Isaiah 46:9 as a standard, that El (God) is not like the Elohim (Divine Beings/Archangels)...
Yahavah (H3068) Elohim (H430) is a Divine Being; often translated as Lord God...Whereas he is Head of the Archangels who created reality, like in Zoroastrianism, etc.
People have confused the 24 Elders that Surround the Throne of God (the Divine Council (Elohim)), as being demigods in the past (Polytheism) or one being above the others (Henotheism).
The Source (El) is 100% pure mathematics, and is beyond form; thus it is above the form of the Divine Council (Elohim), who are the wisest beings in the reality.
In my opinion.
The Hebrews were originally another Canaanite tribe who followed the Canaanite pantheon.. El, Baal, Yam, Astoreth.. Many of the Psalms were taken from the Ugaritic poetry.
dfnj
Well-Known Member
Maybe a Universal religion doesn't exist. Maybe each of us has our own path to travel for finding our own salvation. Maybe nobody can help us with our journey. Maybe the idea of a messiah is ill-conceived and created by people who were too desperate or unwilling to face the challenges of solving their own existential problems.
I think the answer is each of us needs to do the work of finding out sufficient answers to our own personal religious questions. Nobody can do the work for us. It's an individual's journey. And if you see the Buddha on the road, kill him! The answers are NOT out there. The answers will not come from outside of yourself. Everyone has different answers to how we are to achieve salvation.
The proof is when you have no desire or reason to ask the question of whether or not someone else might be a messiah or the messiah in the first place.
The problem with the way people practice religion today is like being an NFL football fan. People love rooting for their favorite players and teams. People are fans or spectators. However, when you are on the field actually playing the game it's a completely different and more meaningful experience. Some people get hurt being on the field an run away or get back into the stands to spectate. Being a fan or running away may not be a successful way to score a touchdown of personal salvation.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
So who is Zechariah (for instance) talking about when he writes of The One who comes as a reigning
King and restores Isreal - the same one who came before as the lowly man they crucified?
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Zechariah, concerning the one the Jewish people pierced. This Messiah speaks of His own covenant - which
He Himself has shed His own blood for,. ca 520 BC
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! See, your King comes to you,
righteous and victorious, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. And I will cut off the chariot
from Ephraim and the horse from Jerusalem, and the bow of war will be broken. Then He will proclaim peace to
the nations; His dominion will extend from sea to sea, and from the Euphrates to the ends of the earth. As for you,
because of the blood of My covenant, I will release your prisoners from the waterless pit.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
wizanda said: ↑
He was a reincarnation of David.
In my opinion.
Sooda said:
There is NO reincarnation.
Wizanda is more correct than Sooda.
Wizanda said "In my opinion" meaning his view was an opinion
Sooda said "There is NO..." but without the caveat "In my opinion."
Fact is we don't know, essentially, much about anything. To declare
something is impossible, or never happened, is to venture into
opinion - not venture into fact.
stvdv
Veteran Member
Is it Possible to Prove Being the Messiah?
Strange way, how you formulated the title. It gives me the feeling that you think that "you are the Messiah". Or did you just try to be non-redundant?
Do you believe you are the Messiah?
Otherwise I would expect the title to be:
Is it Possible to Prove "Who is the Messiah?"
How you phrase it, I read it as:
"Is it Possible to Prove (to you, Wizanda...) Being the Messiah"
This comment is like walking into a discussion about whether green tea or black tea is superior and saying "Tea sucks, I prefer drinking kefir".
sooda
Veteran Member
wizanda said: ↑
He was a reincarnation of David.
In my opinion.
Sooda said:
There is NO reincarnation.
Wizanda is more correct than Sooda.
Wizanda said "In my opinion" meaning his view was an opinion
Sooda said "There is NO..." but without the caveat "In my opinion."
Fact is we don't know, essentially, much about anything. To declare
something is impossible, or never happened, is to venture into
opinion - not venture into fact.
Zecharia is writing about the rededication of the Temple after it had been defiled by the Greeks. He's talking about Joshua the high priest who he crowns.
Consulting holy writ, in this case Wikipedia, I'm unsurprised to learn that the messiah:
[1] is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil,
[2] is a human leader,
[3] is physically descended from the paternal Davidic line through King David and King Solomon,
[4] will accomplish (inter alia) -
[4a] the unification of the tribes of Israel,
[4b] gathering of all Jews to Eretz Israel,
[4c] the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem,
[4d] the ushering in of a Messianic Age of global universal peace, and
[4e] the annunciation of the world to come.
[4b] gathering of all Jews to Eretz Israel,
[4c] the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem,
[4d] the ushering in of a Messianic Age of global universal peace, and
[4e] the annunciation of the world to come.
So if those are the rules, I can see why non-Christians might not think Jesus has earned the title 'messiah' / 'anointed one' / 'Christos'.
And I can't see any basis on which Christians might think he's indeed earnt it. "Paul says so" won't really cut it, will it?
For example, he's not [1]. If [2] he was a human leader, which Trinitarians deny, he didn't accomplish any of [4] and it's now two millennia too late to fix. (If anyone can quote Jesus giving a meaningful blueprint of 'The world to come', I may have to except [4e] from that statement.) The Jesus of Mark is expressly not descended from David [3], while the Jesuses of Paul, Matthew, Luke and John are, but that descent is either not credible (the two pretend genealogies in Matthe and Luke) or not demonstrated (Paul, John).
And so on.
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With the contents it is purposefully achieved, that the main aspect is David/Yeshua being fulfilment of prophecy first, and then me after... We can't prove one, without the other.
In my opinion.
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RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
I should point out that all of Wiz’s posts end with the tag line, “In my opinion.” It doesn’t matter what the subject. He could write that he had just eaten a bowl of corn flakes and the tag line would be there.wizanda said: ↑
He was a reincarnation of David.
In my opinion.
Sooda said:
There is NO reincarnation.
Wizanda is more correct than Sooda.
Wizanda said "In my opinion" meaning his view was an opinion
Sooda said "There is NO..." but without the caveat "In my opinion."
Wiz can correct me if I am wrong, but he does not consider what he posts to be an opinion, he considers what he posts to be fact. The tag line is there because aways back he was advised that it was appropriate to couch his positions as his opinions.
sooda
Veteran Member
Christians have made it worse by trying to change Jewish scripture to fit Jesus.
sooda
Veteran Member
With the contents it is purposefully achieved, that the main aspect is Yeshua being fulfilment of prophecy first, and then me after... We can't prove one, without the other.
In my opinion.
Which of the following was fulfilled in Jesus?
the messiah:
[1] is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil,
[2] is a human leader,
[3] is physically descended from the paternal Davidic line through King David and King Solomon,
[4] will accomplish (inter alia) -
[4a] the unification of the tribes of Israel,
[4b] gathering of all Jews to Eretz Israel,
[4c] the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem,
[4d] the ushering in of a Messianic Age of global universal peace, and
[4e] the annunciation of the world to come.