Is progressive revelation believable?

[od19g6]

Who's criteria is that?

That's the criteria when you read the baha'i scriptures which is the current divine revelation for this time and age.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe having the Holy Spirit as a guide I will be able to tell without having any pre-suppositions. So far all I have is one person saying one thing and another person another and both are self interested.

Too many people claim to have the Holy Spirit as their guide, and claim diverse conflicting. and of course able to tell. All we have is one person saying one thing, and everyone claiming something different. Accusations of 'others' and not you is subjective and egocentric making judgements of the motives of others. Your neglecting the fact that we are all fallible humans.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe they don't have any progressive revelation.

OK, that is what you believe.

i don't intend to be insulting but I believe only wish to state the truth. When Muhammad came on the scene Arabia was steeped in idolatry. I view it as a positive thing that they were converted to monotheism. [/quote]

It is the 'truth' you claim based on your belief

I believe in order to believe in something I have to have valid evidence. So far no Bahai has presented any. I know why Jews don't want to believe in Christianity. It would be admitting that they have been wrong all these years.

You have no more valid evidence for subjective 'beliefs' than those who 'believe' differently concerning the different religions and belief systems.

What valid evidence could you offer other than the subjective circular reasoning concerning what you believe in the Bible?

 

[dybmh]

What is a "Lie" in another Language? Religion and Culture/Language are so Thoroughly not similar or necessary. Make your proof that Haneullim - Wikipedia didn't create a Race. The Germanic Languages have an unknown backstory on "Gott" in German instead of God, While Greece has "Theus", with huge language variety in Orthodoxy, while the Latin-Supremacy of Catholicism uses unrelated "Deus" in all Languages.

A Muslim comes up to you knowing your story of Jesus Christ, and rejects you, and puts him an a Mohammad affirming status as one of the prophets along side the prophet Mohammad. Muslims are a 600 year later story to free the Byzantine Empire inhabitants.

Well call not having the Creation Discovered of a place Christians had never been to as Syncretism? I think that's total stupid. I think syncretic is a loss of distinct academic traditions, politics, and claims.

Maybe you're right. Perhaps syncretism isn't a good word to describe my beliefs. I don't advocate for any homogenized watered down blending of religions.

If I remember, the Mayans had the right idea. There was no cultural appropriation, from what I can tell. It was a loose confederation. Each city / tribe had its own culture that was maintained not assimilated.

Maya civilization - Wikipedia
.

 

[CG Didymus]

Firstly I want to point out that there is no 'hell'. That was a misunderstanding by the followers of the revelations of old.

Okay, how were Christians supposed to interpret these verses?
Matt. 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Thess. 2 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.
Rev. 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

 

[CG Didymus]

But Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is still working off of islam. He hasn't founded a new and independent religion.

Even though he had good intentions:

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is like the mature and knowledgeable child among the other children in the classroom.

Baha'u'llah is like the actual adult educated Teacher of the classroom.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the Mujaddid (revivor of Islam) of the 14th Islamic century, and in 1891 he declared that he was the promised Messiah (“Second Coming of Christ”) and Mahdi.

Sounds like he's making the same claims as your prophet. Why is yours right and theirs wrong?

 

[shunyadragon]

Okay, how were Christians supposed to interpret these verses?
Matt. 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Thess. 2 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.
Rev. 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

As with all ancient scriptures they represent a fallible human view of God and God's relatinship to humanity.

 

[shunyadragon]

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the Mujaddid (revivor of Islam) of the 14th Islamic century, and in 1891 he declared that he was the promised Messiah (“Second Coming of Christ”) and Mahdi.

Sounds like he's making the same claims as your prophet. Why is yours right and theirs wrong?

By their works you shall no them.

 

[shunyadragon]

What is a "Lie" in another Language? Religion and Culture/Language are so Thoroughly not similar or necessary. Make your proof that Haneullim - Wikipedia didn't create a Race. The Germanic Languages have an unknown backstory on "Gott" in German instead of God, While Greece has "Theus", with huge language variety in Orthodoxy, while the Latin-Supremacy of Catholicism uses unrelated "Deus" in all Languages.

A Muslim comes up to you knowing your story of Jesus Christ, and rejects you, and puts him an a Mohammad affirming status as one of the prophets along side the prophet Mohammad. Muslims are a 600 year later story to free the Byzantine Empire inhabitants.

Well call not having the Creation Discovered of a place Christians had never been to as Syncretism? I think that's total stupid. I think syncretic is a loss of distinct academic traditions, politics, and claims.

Take this to its logical conclusion in the manner you have presented, and all the religions, and churches are human constructs only.

There is a good argument that Christianity is a syncretic religion.

 

[Bird123]

Yes. When a Manifestation of God appears creative energies are released into the world even though the world aren't aware of it.



In my understanding religion comes to the world to let human beings know what they really are: spiritual beings.

We will never fully understand God, the only way we can know God is through His names and attributes.



We by default the human being is a pure and noble creature. But we do need divine education that can only be given by the Manifestation.



You're right, that's why the divine teachings are the standard of teaching us what's right and what's wrong. It fine tunes the human being's spirituality.

your quote;In my understanding religion comes to the world to let human beings know what they really are: spiritual beings.
MY ANSWER: Religion is a creation of mankind. It's mankind telling you this. On the other hand, everyone should already know they are Spiritual beings. Since this physical world has so much sensory input, many choose to see only that instead of reality.

your quote:We will never fully understand God, the only way we can know God is through His names and attributes.
My Answer: Are you building walls that prevent you from Discovery? Is this just an excuse to be satisfied with mere beliefs? Does everything you know about God consist of what others believe, such as holy books?

Your quote:But we do need divine education that can only be given by the Manifestation.
MY ANSWER: What manifestation do you speak of? Your religion? Divine education does not require nor has ever required a manifestation. This entire physical universe is the divine education.

Your quote:You're right, that's why the divine teachings are the standard of teaching us what's right and what's wrong. It fine tunes the human being's spirituality.
MY ANSWER: This is mankind's view of right and wrong, good or bad. Where is the exact line between good and bad? Do you think God is defining this for you? Can you find anyone who can draw that line? What would you say if I told you the decision what is good and what is bad is decided by each and every one of us?

When you start to know God, you realize the genius behind everything. When you start to Understand why God does things, you start to Understand God..

God returns our actions back to us. This is not punishment. This is to teach us what our actions really mean. When one understands all sides, intelligence will make the Best choices. There is no need to define good or bad. Bad choices will no longer be viable choices to us simply because they are not intelligent. Each will choose the Best choices.

God is also teaching us all to Love Unconditionally. After all, that is what everyone wants to return to them. God's system leads everyone to perfection through their own free will.

Now I know everyone wants to Poof and be in Heaven. Think about it. For people to actually exist in a total Heavenly state and have free will, one must understand those other choices are not viable choices.

There is way too much to learn in one mere lifetime. Further, there is no time limit on learning so all those hated or condemned sinners, all those atheists, and all those different people are going to make it. No child will be discarded or fried. Mankind is who chooses to destroy that which is not easily fixed. What else are they teaching you?

You know, it's not holy book teachings that make people choose good. It's those lessons we are living.

This world is a multilevel classroom. There will be those learning lessons you might already have learned. Is that really a reason to label people as evil or sinners?

All the secrets of God and the universe stare us all in the face. They are not served up to be accepted as a box of beliefs. Like with all knowledge, it must be Discovered.

That is what I see and it's very Clear. When you can look at this world and it's people and see a MASTERPIECE, I would start to think you are getting there.

 

[shunyadragon]

your quote;In my understanding religion comes to the world to let human beings know what they really are: spiritual beings.
MY ANSWER: Religion is a creation of mankind. It's mankind telling you this. On the other hand, everyone should already know they are Spiritual beings. Since this physical world has so much sensory input, many choose to see only that instead of reality.

By this logic all beliefs including yours are a creation of humanity, even your view that we are spiritual beings. This no more nor less based on an assumption of belief.

your quote:We will never fully understand God, the only way we can know God is through His names and attributes.

My Answer: Are you building walls that prevent you from Discovery? Is this just an excuse to be satisfied with mere beliefs? Does everything you know about God consist of what others believe, such as holy books?

Baha'is do not build walls and acknowledge the diversity of human spiritual experience with our Creator. You on the other hand narrow the way to know the Divine by your own methods and exclude the ways of the religions of the world.

Your quote:But we do need divine education that can only be given by the Manifestation.
MY ANSWER: What manifestation do you speak of? Your religion? Divine education does not require nor has ever required a manifestation. This entire physical universe is the divine education.

Your answer is just as subjective and yes, concerning what is Divine education, and personal because you acknowledge no other source than yourself concerning what is Divine education interpreting the world around you to justify your belief.

Your quote:You're right, that's why the divine teachings are the standard of teaching us what's right and what's wrong. It fine tunes the human being's spirituality.

MY ANSWER: This is mankind's view of right and wrong, good or bad. Where is the exact line between good and bad? Do you think God is defining this for you? Can you find anyone who can draw that line? What would you say if I told you the decision what is good and what is bad is decided by each and every one of us?

If you acknowledge the existence of God and Divine education, than you acknowledge that in one way or another God defines what is right or wrong. Where do you draw the lin? Based on what source?

Baha'i acknowledge the evolving nature of human knowledge of spiritual morals and ethics over time. The Baha'i Principles of the Baha'i Faith are the foundation, and spiritual laws evolve over time for the benefit of humanity, and the independent investigation of truth to explore our beliefs and nature of our physical existence.

When you start to know God, you realize the genius behind everything. When you start to Understand why God does things, you start to Understand God..

Baha'is clearly acknowledge the genius behind everything. In the Baha;i Faith the purpose of Creation is the reflection of the attributes of God in all possible worlds and universes. The nature of our universe that we describe through science is in fact the nature of God.,

OK, tell my why God does these, start to understand God, beyond your own personal opinion.

God returns our actions back to us. This is not punishment. This is to teach us what our actions really mean. When one understands all sides, intelligence will make the Best choices. There is no need to define good or bad. Bad choices will no longer be viable choices to us simply because they are not intelligent. Each will choose the Best choices.

This is not much different from the view of the Baha'i Faith, except it was revealed as part of Revelation from God ,ore than 159 years ago, and yours is personal opinion, unless you can come up with another source..

God is also teaching us all to Love Unconditionally. After all, that is what everyone wants to return to them. God's system leads everyone to perfection through their own free will.

Again . . . this closely resembles the Baha'i belief. What is your 'source.'

Now I know everyone wants to Poof and be in Heaven. Think about it. For people to actually exist in a total Heavenly state and have free will, one must understand those other choices are not viable choices.

Baha'is do not believe 'poof your in heaven.'

There is way too much to learn in one mere lifetime. Further, there is no time limit on learning so all those hated or condemned sinners, all those atheists, and all those different people are going to make it. No child will be discarded or fried. Mankind is who chooses to destroy that which is not easily fixed. What else are they teaching you?

At present you do not have a good knowledge of the Baha'i Faith to begin answering these questions. Example: Hated or condemned sinners?!?!?!' There is mo Hell nor purgatory and Sinners are not hated.

You know, it's not holy book teachings that make people choose good. It's those lessons we are living.

How come so many people come up with so many different conclusions from the 'lessons we are living.' Some horrendous, some bad, and some good. by what standards do distinguish them.

This world is a multilevel classroom. There will be those learning lessons you might already have learned. Is that really a reason to label people as evil or sinners?

Who revealed this to you?

All the secrets of God and the universe stare us all in the face. They are not served up to be accepted as a box of beliefs. Like with all knowledge, it must be Discovered.

That is what I see and it's very Clear. When you can look at this world and it's people and see a MASTERPIECE, I would start to think you are getting there.

The Baha'is also see not only this world, but all possible worlds as a MASTERPIECE.

Yes, the universe is there for us to discover, no problem from the Baha'i perspective.

What is the source for your ANSWERS?

 

[firedragon]

That's the criteria when you read the baha'i scriptures which is the current divine revelation for this time and age.

Okay. I understand. But that is your criteria. Thats not a valid argument to put down someone elses prophet and say "Mines better".

In that case you must first prove with evidence that your said criteria is the valid criteria, not with Bahai writing but in some other way. That will take you on a chain of things you will have to keep take people through by proving them all with evidence.

Mine is better than yours because of my own criteria is not a valid statement. Its totally unfair. And not understanding that is extremely distant.

 

[MikeDwight]

Take this to its logical conclusion in the manner you have presented, and all the religions, and churches are human constructs only.

There is a good argument that Christianity is a syncretic religion.

I've been quoted 5 places out here. Jesus only ever said Hades 6 times and never said Hell, then the Jewish people Reject a fellow Jew in the Roman world's Hellenism, who can Defeat and throw the land of the underworld in the fire. I've said 6 places that Paul in Athens found a God of the Athenians and "That which you worship I proclaim to you", then the Scripture and the example of Jesus has Always been dealing with humans, this started with the metaphors and the parables.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, and that's the point that I was making is that for some things in religion to the best we can to understand the reason why.

I was making mention of the Baptist and Yeshua. Their campaign was about the corruption, greed, disloyal and hypocrisy of the Temple priesthood. It just got manipulated later by folks like Paul, I think.

Well you know if it wasn't for the Messengers we wouldn't even know about God in the first place.

I am a Deist. You, me, your clothes, the road outside, the planet and every part of every atom that exists, and all energy, and all the space in between IS a part of the whole, which is God. One only has to perceive that for oneself. Your idea of messengers from God is strange to me, especially when they write such strange ideas down.

Bahauallah was a great writer of prose bjut his ideas about justice, government and other matters show that he was no special messenger. His world, if it came about, would be much more terrifying than Orwell's 1984. Honest.

We're far from small, the human being has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level, in other words we are the most perfect creation.

We are WHAT!!! ?
When mankind gets so stuck up and arrogant about itself, you can be sure that it is being lead astray.
We messed up the ecology of the World in about 250 years, so we're pretty dumb, I would say.

 

[oldbadger]

In the Kitab-i-Iqan Baha'u'llah proves the Messages prior to Jesus and after Jesus.

This is an extract from part One:and yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire.

The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

All the best.

RegardsTony

The above a paret of what yoo quoted.
So your Bahauallah was seeming to be intent upon Anti-Semitism from the start, eh?

And his idea about who Jesus was is just strange. His knowledge was gathered mostly from books, I expect.

 

[oldbadger]

What do they actually teach? Do they practice what they teach? What prophecies do they fulfill from the scriptures of old?

OK.
Question:-
Do you know what Bahauallah taught about wealth and material possessions?
I would be pleased to read about that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The above a paret of what yoo quoted.
So your Bahauallah was seeming to be intent upon Anti-Semitism from the start, eh?

And his idea about who Jesus was is just strange. His knowledge was gathered mostly from books, I expect.

I see what you may expect is so, is not so, If it was, Baha'u'llah would have been proved easily wrong and a liar back in His time. But no one challenged Him back then, as it was know He did speak the Truth;

"..The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely..." Baha'u'llah

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

I see what you may expect is so, is not so, If it was, Baha'u'llah would have been proved easily wrong and a liar back in His time. But no one challenged Him back then, as it was know He did speak the Truth;

You don't think he was challenged?
They got rid of of him out of Persia!

Tony........... you just cannot see the simple truth, imo.

"..The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely..." Baha'u'llah

Regards Tony

Schools? He probably received private tuition; after all, his family were hugely rich and privileged, as was he.

But, regardless of all, he obviously knew nothing about economics, as he admitted himself in his own hand.

I do not believe him.

 

[shunyadragon]

I've been quoted 5 places out here. Jesus only ever said Hades 6 times and never said Hell, then the Jewish people Reject a fellow Jew in the Roman world's Hellenism, who can Defeat and throw the land of the underworld in the fire. I've said 6 places that Paul in Athens found a God of the Athenians and "That which you worship I proclaim to you", then the Scripture and the example of Jesus has Always been dealing with humans, this started with the metaphors and the parables.

OK, this is what you believe, but this did not respond to my post.

 

[MikeDwight]

Take this to its logical conclusion in the manner you have presented, and all the religions, and churches are human constructs only.

There is a good argument that Christianity is a syncretic religion.

I don't take to its logical conclusion from my presentation that all religions are syncretic.
"
1 : the combination of different forms of belief or practice
2 : the fusion of two or more originally different inflectional forms
"
Far more extreme than I think a few limited Korean writers have assumed to characterize faith. 1 Kings 18:28

More to the point of your phrasing, a lot of our practices are spelled out in Revelation. Revelation has a Heavenly Choir to sing the Praises of God for all Eternity, and that's the exalted position of Mankind. The Holy Sunday is from the Old Testament

I know we're just here to promote Baha'i''* In that case, its so cute, don't let me offend at all. That's interesting. Ya maybe all religions are a syncretic thing.
I said that with little persuasion in their original religion that original missionaries choose to Judge Miracles, Judge and investigate Miracles, and bring belief practices of other religions into their own ascension.