Is Satan actually the good guy?

[Twilight Hue]

An interesting debate topic arose in another forum concerning stats on the actions of Satan and actions of God.

There was also a suggestion that Satan actually tried to help Adam and Eve by enticing them to eat the forbidden fruit so they will open their eyes concerning a god that kills and murders his creation at whim if it proves displeasing.

The war in heaven was justified and was an attempt by Satan to better things.

Come to think of it, i can't really find any accounts of Satans exploits in the Bible or anywhere that would justify such a reputation as that givin to Satan.

In fact there is very little mentioned in regards to Satans activity and life in general.

A strange omission when you think of it in that so little is known about Satan's creation and life in theology.

After all he is the arch nemesis here ......or perhaps not and was just givin a bum rap?

Let the debate begin.....

 

[outhouse]

It is a concept that has been evolving for over a thousand years.

Adversary
Fallen Angel
Ha-Satan
Devil

Trying to read into it using a late Christian conception and then applying that to the Jewish OT just isnt going to cut it.

 

[Searching For Truth]

An interesting debate topic arose in another forum
Come to think of it, i can't really find any accounts of Satans exploits in the Bible or anywhere that would justify such a reputation as that givin to Satan.

In fact there is very little mentioned in regards to Satans activity and life in general.


Let the debate begin.....

12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord

I would suggest reading Job 1 and 2 and see just what Satan did when God did give him power over Job and all he had.

 

[Skwim]

12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord

I would suggest reading Job 1 and 2 and see just what Satan did when God did give him power over Job and all he had.

But Satan's actions were with god's "blessing." God too wanted to see what Job would do (so much from being omnicient).

 

[Father Heathen]

Maybe Satan's rebellion against God was similar to that of the American colonies' rebellion against the English Crown; liberty vs. tyranny.

 

[Searching For Truth]

But Satan's actions were with god's "blessing." God too wanted to see what Job would do (so much from being omnicient).

That in no way makes God accountable for Satan's actions. You were speaking about Satan's actions now your talking about Gods omniscience?

 

[Pegg]

An interesting debate topic arose in another forum concerning stats on the actions of Satan and actions of God.

There was also a suggestion that Satan actually tried to help Adam and Eve by enticing them to eat the forbidden fruit so they will open their eyes concerning a god that kills and murders his creation at whim if it proves displeasing.

The war in heaven was justified and was an attempt by Satan to better things.

Come to think of it, i can't really find any accounts of Satans exploits in the Bible or anywhere that would justify such a reputation as that givin to Satan.

In fact there is very little mentioned in regards to Satans activity and life in general.

A strange omission when you think of it in that so little is known about Satan's creation and life in theology.

After all he is the arch nemesis here ......or perhaps not and was just givin a bum rap?

Let the debate begin.....

lol,
the 'deceiver' is at it again


2Cor 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light.

 

[arhys]

There was also a suggestion that Satan actually tried to help Adam and Eve by enticing them to eat the forbidden fruit so they will open their eyes concerning a god that kills and murders his creation at whim if it proves displeasing.

Whim? God flooded the world because his creation became entirely corrupt as a result of Adam and Eve's transgression. If anything, they would have had the world's most significant "oops" moment.

Genesis 5:5-7 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for the same reason:

Genesis 18:20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave [...] 23 And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? [...] 32 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.”

Come to think of it, i can't really find any accounts of Satans exploits in the Bible or anywhere that would justify such a reputation as that givin to Satan.

Book of Job, as someone previously suggested. Also Jesus' temptation in the desert. Matthew 4:1-11.

In fact there is very little mentioned in regards to Satans activity and life in general.

That's because Satan doesn't really matter. If you skip to the end, he loses.

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Let the debate begin.....

Wiki "Demiurge." The Gnostics beat you to it.

 

[Skwim]

That in no way makes God accountable for Satan's actions.

At least not for what Satan specifically did, although he did tell Satan he could do whatever he wanted, short of killing Job.

You were speaking about Satan's actions now your talking about Gods omniscience?

Just a side observation that god was unable to see what Job would do.

Whim? God flooded the world because his creation became entirely corrupt as a result of Adam and Eve's transgression. If anything, they would have had the world's most significant "oops" moment.

Genesis 5:5-7 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for the same reason:

Genesis 18:20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave [...] 23 And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? [...] 32 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.”

And look what it accomplished. Nada.

 

[Searching For Truth]

At least not for what Satan specifically did, although he did tell Satan he could do whatever he wanted, short of killing Job.

I still fail to see what this has to do with the actions that only Satan are responsible for? You are comparing the actions of Satan to God and insinuating that Satan was actually showing more love and compassion. Well explain to me how you read compassion and love in the story of Job. You seem to be confused about the Genesis story maybe you will get a clearer picture in the story of Job as to how kind and loving Satan is.

Just a side observation that god was unable to see what Job would do.

Of which I disagree; but that is a whole other topic.

 

[Skwim]

I still fail to see what this has to do with the actions that only Satan are responsible for? You are comparing the actions of Satan to God and insinuating that Satan was actually showing more love and compassion. Well explain to me how you read compassion and love in the story of Job. You seem to be confused about the Genesis story maybe you will get a clearer picture in the story of Job as to how kind and loving Satan is.

Whoa! Call off the posse and holster your six-shooters. You used the word "accountable," and this is what I was addressing: accountability. If you want to assign accountability than god deserves his share, however it may be regarded, as does Satan.

 

[Pegg]

Whoa! Call off the posse and holster your six-shooters. You used the word "accountable," and this is what I was addressing: accountability. If you want to assign accountability than god deserves his share, however it may be regarded, as does Satan.

God was not the instigator

And unfortunately, Satan wasnt challenging God, he was challenging Job. Satan actually wanted God to bring harm to the man, but God would not be pulled into his little game.

 

[Searching For Truth]

Whoa! Call off the posse and holster your six-shooters. You used the word "accountable," and this is what I was addressing: accountability. If you want to assign accountability than god deserves his share, however it may be regarded, as does Satan.

Maybe you can underline where I used the word accountability? I seem not to be able to find it. Although it is irrelevant to the thread, I thought the O.P. was about how Satan was actually the caring one and God was the deceiver. then you jumped to God being omniscient, Now you are saying that Satan's actions should be credited to God?

Do you have a clue where you are going with this because you lost me on the first reply. I gave an example of Satan's goodness in the book of Job and you are now saying that it was actually God who is responsible for Satan's actions. Fine then God was responsible for Satan's actions in Genesis according to your logic so either way God is Good and the Devil is a liar. What is your point? According to the bible.

 

[Skwim]

Maybe you can underline where I used the word accountability? I seem not to be able to find it.

"Accountable," post #6

Although it is irrelevant to the thread, I thought the O.P. was about how Satan was actually the caring one and God was the deceiver. then you jumped to God being omniscient, Now you are saying that Satan's actions should be credited to God?

I'm saying what I said. There are no hidden meanings. Just reread my post.

Do you have a clue where you are going with this because you lost me on the first reply. I gave an example of Satan's goodness in the book of Job and you are now saying that it was actually God who is responsible for Satan's actions.

When you said "I would suggest reading Job 1 and 2 and see just what Satan did when God did give him power over Job and all he had". I took it as an example of Satan's evil---he did a lot of not-nice things to Job. My mistake.

 

[gnostic]

Only Christian doctrine (and Islamic doctrine) depict Satan as the bad guy.

The Jewish concept of Satan is that of guy who work for God: to test the faithful, if they were truly faithful. In the Book of Job, Satan was actually doing God's bidding.

The question is - is God truly a "good guy"?

 

[Skwim]

God was not the instigator

After bragging to Satan what a blameless and upright man job is we come to verse 9.

Job 1:9-12

9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Satan asked god a question.

10 Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? Satan asked a follow-up question.

You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. Satan reviewed all the good god has done for Job

11 But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.” Satan makes the point that should god take away Job's good fortune he will curse god.

12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord. God decides to show Satan that he's wrong by sending Satan to do his best to turn Job against him (god).
​

God could just as well have told Satan to go shine his horns and sharpen his trident, but instead he decided to prove Satan wrong, thus setting into motion all the unfortunate events that befell poor ol' Job.

And unfortunately, Satan wasnt challenging God, he was challenging Job.

As verse 11 above and the verses to follow show he challenged both.

Satan actually wanted God to bring harm to the man,

Not at this point. In the beginning Satan only wanted god to make Job's life so miserable that he would turn against god. ". . . put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has." Touch his possessions.

but God would not be pulled into his little game.

Well, god did give Satan his "blessing," in effect saying "go do your best to turn Job against me."

 

[Skwim]

Only Christian doctrine (and Islamic doctrine) depict Satan as the bad guy.

The Jewish concept of Satan is that of guy who work for God: to test the faithful, if they were truly faithful. In the Book of Job, Satan was actually doing God's bidding.

The question is - is God truly a "good guy"?

The guy who created evil? Hardly.

 

[Searching For Truth]

"Accountable," post #6

Oh you quoted post 10 and replied on post 6 I see it now.

I'm saying what I said. There are no hidden meanings. Just reread my post.

An interesting debate topic arose in another forum concerning stats on the actions of Satan and actions of God.

There was also a suggestion that Satan actually tried to help Adam and Eve by enticing them to eat the forbidden fruit so they will open their eyes concerning a god that kills and murders his creation at whim if it proves displeasing.

The war in heaven was justified and was an attempt by Satan to better things.

Come to think of it, i can't really find any accounts of Satans exploits in the Bible or anywhere that would justify such a reputation as that givin to Satan.

In fact there is very little mentioned in regards to Satans activity and life in general.

A strange omission when you think of it in that so little is known about Satan's creation and life in theology.

After all he is the arch nemesis here ......or perhaps not and was just givin a bum rap?

Let the debate begin.....

O.K. now what I still hold to my example.

When you said "I would suggest reading Job 1 and 2 and see just what Satan did when God did give him power over Job and all he had". I took it as an example of Satan's evil---he did a lot of not-nice things to Job. My mistake.

Yea I'm lost! It is an example of Satan's evil. Are you being sarcastic? Evil... Not so nice are these not a form of a synonym especially when dealing with murder and causing disease?

 

[Searching For Truth]

After bragging to Satan what a blameless and upright man job is we come to verse 9.

Job 1:9-12

9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Satan asked god a question.

10 Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? Satan asked a follow-up question.

You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. Satan reviewed all the good god has done for Job

11 But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.” Satan makes the point that should god take away Job's good fortune he will curse god.

12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord. God decides to show Satan that he's wrong by sending Satan to do his best to turn Job against him (god).
​

God could just as well have told Satan to go shine his horns and sharpen his trident, but instead he decided to prove Satan wrong, thus setting into motion all the unfortunate events that befell poor ol' Job.

God had a purpose when bringing Job to Satan's attention, I doubt it was to then tell him to go sharpen his horns.

As verse 11 above and the verses to follow show he challenged both.

False! He challenged neither, He made a request of God which was denied and he tempted Job and failed.

Not at this point. In the beginning Satan only wanted god to make Job's life so miserable that he would turn against god. ". . . put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has." Touch his possessions.

Not at any point so what exactly would be your point? You said it yourself Satan only wanted.

Well, god did give Satan his "blessing," in effect saying "go do your best to turn Job against me."

And you miss the whole moral of the story! God set Satan up! If you are going to recite scripture to mock the bible it is only fair that I point out the obvious way you err. Let us just say that God is omniscient. Lets say that God knew that Job no matter what tribulation he endured would never curse his God. There is no wager, God is not gambling or taking a risk to lose his perfect servant. What God does do is set Satan up to be defeated as we see he is done when Job never curses God and also gives Job the opportunity to defeat Satan Which is something we all must do in order to become more godly, and because Job didn't curse God therefor defeating Satan he was blessed double all he had to begin with. You must have forgotten that part. Satan causes loss, pain, grief with his limited power. He could have chose to try to entice Job or show Job more Love than God or even tried to black mail Job; but instead he kills everything Job Loves, and owns and causes him to lose all his financial stability. Sounds like a real nice guy to me. God on the other hand set Satan up to be defeated, and blessed his servant for defeating Satan even though he already knew before hand that Job would prevail. In His mercy he returns all Job had double. of course this is my understanding and opinion of the story according to the bible.

Unfortunate when people see God as causing harm when in reality it is Satan who caused harm. God didn't say to cause harm. He didn't give Satan any directions, He allowed Satan the power to do as he will with what Job had, and Satan used that power for evil. God in his mercy wouldn't have allowed Satan that power if he had one speck of doubt that Job would fail. That is the omniscience of God to know that Job would prevail and then be rewarded. In my honest opinion.

 

[JayJayDee]

There is something in the bigger picture that seems to have been overlooked. Pegg has tried to show you.
Satan was not challenging. GOD, he was challenging Job. He was saying that human faith was shallow, dependant upon selfishness and self interest. Was he right?

Satan already had two perfect humans that he had managed to turn away from God. Here was an imperfect man that satan thought was a certainty to buckle under pressure.

When God asked satan if he had set his heart on his servant Job, it was because this man had already come to satan's attention. There was no one like him as far as faithfulness went, yet satan was determined to break him. God can foreknow the outcome of everything and he was so certain of Job's integrity, that he allowed satan to test him to the limit. (1Cor 10:13) There was always a line of demarcation, that satan was not permitted to cross.

Job was a very special case with a very good outcome. As a man of faith, Job would have had the same faith as Abraham when he was asked to sacrifice his precious son, Isaac. (Heb 11:17-19) He would have had full faith in the resurrection of his children.

His life situation was returned with bonuses. 10 more children, increased wealth and a wonderful hope for the future when all of his family would be reunited in the kingdom of God that Messiah would rule. (Heb 11:13)

What was also proven is that imperfect men could retain their faith and integrity under extreme test, because their love for God was greater than their love for themselves and for the temporary things of this world.

Christ retained his integrity under satan's temptations as well, proving that Adam and his wife could have made the right choices.

Satan is permitted to test mankind in ways that God never could. He did not ask satan to rebel, nor did he expect Adam and his wife to disobey him, but seeing as how it happened, he would use it to his advantage. The devil implied that all humans will abandon God if the going got tough.

How are we individually doing in this test? Are we like Job, sticking to God in the face of any test? Or are we like Adam and Eve?...and even satan himself, looking out for something better for ourselves? Ditching God when things go wrong?