Is there a Creator?

[Gharib]

Is there a God who created our so-called creation? I would tend to say “no” for the following reasons:

1. It is a trick to call existence “creation” and thereby posit that there has to be creator.

if that is so, then questions arise out of that.

why would anyone want to deceive everyone else with something if it wasn't there?

no one seeks something if there is nothing there. imagine yourself being left in some island as a kid. then when you grow up why in the world would you say to yourself an etternal being exists that has created everything? or to make a bigger question how will you even get the idea that such a being exists, from what will you get that idea?

religion has been a big part of life throughout history. if it was a lie then how is it that a world of 6 billion people can't dissprove it? infact most of that 6 billion are people that believe in god.

2. What exists is better called existence.

yes everything that exists is called existence. but every existence is also called a creation. what is not a creation cannot exist. i don't soppose you know of something that has not been created but that exists? appart from god that is.

3. The question of who created existence does not arise because there was never a time when existence was not.

but all things have a start and an ending unless you are something or someone that creates all things. existence isn't time. and god is beyond time, he knows everything so he does not wait to see what will happen tommorow. therefore god has existed before time and before eixstence.

4. To say there is no “creator” is not to say there is no God because that would depend on what we mean by God.

well by god islam means the creator of all things, the being that existed when there was nothing. a being that has no borders nor limmits and isn't the creation of some creator.

I request members to please comment on my statements as I am seeking a definitive answer as to whether there is a Creator.

i hope my comments are helpfull.

 

[Jeremiah]

Truly, there are no facts. Everything except selfhood, or existence, is ultimately subjective. There is no "that" (a past event) because when you refer to "that", what you are really doing is making a mental projection of a "then" now. It all flows out of the self, now. You didn't know what you know now "then" because you were unconscious of it "then". All events happen simultaneously. Time only feels real and objective if you dwell in multiple views of reality, but again, it's always done now. Your entire life is experienced in the present moment. You cannot think or experience anything that is not now. You can't even remember things without remembering them now. Nor can you conceive of a future that is not perceived now. Nothing exists except that which is perceived now now now now now now now...

If you want to have a serious conversation let me know.

 

[Jeremiah]

Today becomes yesterday when our clocks chime the mid-night bell. But Hindus, for example, believe that today becomes yesterday only when it is dawn. Does this mean that time is but an arbitrary measurement we have made for our convenience and has no existence in reality?

Are you suggesting that if we didn't measure the passing of days that they would stop passing? Is time going to stop if we are not looking? No, it is not. The fact that we have created descriptive words and systems of measurements does not mean time is not real; actually it suggest just the opposite.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

If you want to have a serious conversation let me know.

He is (or at least he is trying to); there are only three things which we know empirically. There is existence. I exist. And identity is true (I am equal to myself and not equal to that which is not myself).

Do we know what existence is, what properties it has? Nope, not a clue. Long story short; Turkey is make a proper argument, but is being a bit too mystical methinks...

MTF

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Are you suggesting that if we didn't measure the passing of days that they would stop passing? Is time going to stop if we are not looking? No, it is not. The fact that we have created descriptive words and systems of measurements does not mean time is not real; actually it suggest just the opposite.

Yes, if we didn't measure the passing of days, then seconds, minutes, hours, days, etc would stop. Seconds are not the same as time. Ordination is integral to cause and effect (at least as much as I understand), but time is not. Time can run backwards and cause and effect is still preserved.

MTF

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Difference is not the same as separation. But absolute difference is separation. According to me the only difference between us and God is that we, as we are, are ephemeral and God is eternal. We are not in eternal forms. Only the formless we is eternal.

I hate to say it but if the creator is posited outside creation, we end up playing the slave role vis-à-vis God, whereas if the creator is creation, we would be tempted to seek our divinity.

We have no idea what absolute difference entails; it is not found in nature. And I would hold that there is no separation between us and "God," but that we are different in more ways than just "timeness" (timeless versus ephemeral). We are individuals (divided from "wholeness" into "oneness"), as in we are not multiple things at the same time. We are conscious, yet "God" (at the very least parts of, because clearly rocks are not) is not (at least not in the way we understand the term conscious to mean). The differences go on ad infinitum because perfection is infinite and we are not; infinity - any number = infinity.


We end up slave to something which does nothing? Care to explain how that can be so? I'm pretty sure that if something does nothing, allowing you to completely do/be as you choose (in as much as that is possible given the circumstances of our cosmos/universe), then it cannot possibly be "master" to us.

And that latter option certainly does sound all that bad to me. At the core of many eastern religion's is something akin to that premise and it lead to the notion that we should all respect the divinity within each of us. If everyone lived by that credo (without hypocrisy), then I should think the world would be a much better place.

MTF

 

[ManTimeForgot]

if that is so, then questions arise out of that.

why would anyone want to deceive everyone else with something if it wasn't there?

no one seeks something if there is nothing there. imagine yourself being left in some island as a kid. then when you grow up why in the world would you say to yourself an eternal being exists that has created everything? or to make a bigger question how will you even get the idea that such a being exists, from what will you get that idea?

religion has been a big part of life throughout history. if it was a lie then how is it that a world of 6 billion people can't disprove it? in fact most of that 6 billion are people that believe in god.



yes everything that exists is called existence. but every existence is also called a creation. what is not a creation cannot exist. i don't suppose you know of something that has not been created but that exists? apart from god that is.



but all things have a start and an ending unless you are something or someone that creates all things. existence isn't time. and god is beyond time, he knows everything so he does not wait to see what will happen tomorrow. therefore god has existed before time and before existence.



well by god islam means the creator of all things, the being that existed when there was nothing. a being that has no borders nor limits and isn't the creation of some creator.



i hope my comments are helpful.

1) Presupposes that seeking something which is not there requires conscious deception. Religion makes people more comfortable with the way things are in this world, so there needn't be anymore truth to it than it effects people (generally) in a positive manner.

1A) If "God" is not obvious to someone living alone on a deserted island, then how is "creation" obvious to all the rest of us who are not on this island?


2) Why should the universe have been created? Why is it that the natural consequence of the rules of existence cannot be responsible for everything?


3) All things which are not existence have a start and an end point IFF existence itself had a starting point and an end point. If existence is eternal, then by necessity all things within existence are eternal (they simply change with time).


MTF

 

[OGMIOS6666]

What is all this fuss about? of course there is a Creator, are we, mankind so arrogant to think that we are the masters of the universe?? indeed we should all gaze up into the skies and understand the greatness of Him who has created, and then we should stoop our necks in humility, for if God wanted to send down a sign from up above, it would have been ever so easy, indeed aforetime dis he send miracles so that mankind would believe, but man the ingrate continued to ridicule the constant reminders which were sent down unto him, You have all not made a just estimate of our Lord what is due to Him, in the end one will come to know the inevitable punishment.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

What is all this fuss about? of course there is a Creator, are we, mankind so arrogant to think that we are the masters of the universe?? indeed we should all gaze up into the skies and understand the greatness of Him who has created, and then we should stoop our necks in humility, for if God wanted to send down a sign from up above, it would have been ever so easy, indeed aforetime dis he send miracles so that mankind would believe, but man the ingrate continued to ridicule the constant reminders which were sent down unto him, You have all not made a just estimate of our Lord what is due to Him, in the end one will come to know the inevitable punishment.

Do you ever get tired of burning strawmen? Who here is claiming we are masters of the universe? I should think anyone who thinks we are anything more than ants in a great hurricane of untold years old is guilty of monumental hubris.

But given that you are utterly convinced that we are all heathens destined to die, and that Jehovah God is constantly sending miracles (which in the past 200 years haven't happened; all hoaxes that we have found... Guess Jehovah God takes breaks huh?) so that we might know that we properly (right because we are slaves to God) belong on our knees (not of our own free will, but because that is our rightful place) it really doesn't matter to you what we think does it? It is ideas like this that make me want to vomit. This completely and utterly flies in the face of our own existence. If you believe in a creator being, then you must contend with the fact that we have Two very prominent "gifts:" Free Will and Understanding. I am free to act as I will and I am capable of sensing and understanding my environment. If humans were not meant to exercise Free Will and Understanding, then we would not possess those. Now if you would kindly take your anti-humanistic propaganda some where where people accept thousand year old repressive autocratic nonsense we would all greatly appreciate it here in the 21st century.

MTF

 

[cottage]

if that is so, then questions arise out of that.

why would anyone want to deceive everyone else with something if it wasn't there?

no one seeks something if there is nothing there. imagine yourself being left in some island as a kid. then when you grow up why in the world would you say to yourself an etternal being exists that has created everything? or to make a bigger question how will you even get the idea that such a being exists, from what will you get that idea?

religion has been a big part of life throughout history. if it was a lie then how is it that a world of 6 billion people can't dissprove it? infact most of that 6 billion are people that believe in god.

With respect I don't think it is a matter of deceit, a lie, or deception, but more an inclination towards religious belief. And so, yes, such people do seek things that they assume exist. And it is surely a nonsense to speak of being unable to disprove the existence of God when even the believers themselves cannot prove what they claim to be true!


yes everything that exists is called existence. but every existence is also called a creation. what is not a creation cannot exist. i don't soppose you know of something that has not been created but that exists? appart from god that is.


Yet if every existent thing is created, and God exists, then God was created! There cannot logically be a special plea or an exception to the general principle: All existent things are created. You need to downgrade the proposition to all contingent things are created. That way, although the statement is tautological, and isn't true of anything that exists anywhere, at least you escape the contradiction.


but all things have a start and an ending unless you are something or someone that creates all things. existence isn't time. and god is beyond time, he knows everything so he does not wait to see what will happen tommorow. therefore god has existed before time and before eixstence.


To say all things have beginning and an end - and then exclude existence itself, by making it contingent upon time, is specious. Existence isn't time, it is being. If a thing is, then it exists. If God is, then God exists, whether he is immanent within our world or outside time.

 

[Troublemane]

Well I dont know if there's a creator per se, but theres definitely something out there which is of superior intelligence and is not physical (ie, not aliens or somesuch), which is intensely interested in how we live and devellop. I believe it does intereact with us at times, as Ive experienced it first hand. So although I cant say its the creator of the universe, or even the creator of mankind, maybe shaper is a better name for it?

I mean, to be called the creator of a work of art, do you have to have created the clay for the sculpture from nothing? Isnt it enough to have shaped the clay you found?

 

[K.Venugopal]

We have no means of identifying creation since the moment of creation is not something we can, as of yet, observe and explain. To suggest with authority either way would be grossly unintelligent.

Observations based on personal preference or in other words "speculation" is the best anyone can do.

But can't we logically conclude something and would it not be valid logically? Of course, it can also be said that logic may not be the ultimate way of seeing. Maybe we ought to consider 'intuition' also.

 

[OGMIOS6666]

He Who created the seven heavens one above another: No want of proportion wilt thou see in the Creation of GOD Most Gracious. So turn thy vision again: seest thou any flaw?

 

[OGMIOS6666]

Do the Unbelievers think that they can take My servants as protectors besides Me? Verily We have prepared Hell for the Unbelievers for (their) entertainment.

 

[logician]

In a chaotic multiverse, there is no need for a creator. Most current cosmological theories consider the mutliverse (and existence) to be eternal, so "gods" are superfluous, and usually are invented to suit man's purposes.

 

[K.Venugopal]

if that is so, then questions arise out of that.

why would anyone want to deceive everyone else with something if it wasn't there?

No conscious deception may have been meant. Things also could be a case of sheer ignorance.

no one seeks something if there is nothing there. imagine yourself being left in some island as a kid. then when you grow up why in the world would you say to yourself an etternal being exists that has created everything? or to make a bigger question how will you even get the idea that such a being exists, from what will you get that idea?

Man has always sought for something for the simple reason that he had felt restless. The restlessness in him, due to his ignorance, led him to the restful state when he discovered his divinity and such discoverers are the people who have started religions.

religion has been a big part of life throughout history. if it was a lie then how is it that a world of 6 billion people can't dissprove it? infact most of that 6 billion are people that believe in god.

Religion is the result of man’s seeking. It is no lie. It is a triumph of man. But the concept of a creator outside of existence, as Islam alone thoroughly believes, could well be an error of understanding. When Allah is unable to create himself, He does not become responsible for what He is. Existence made Him a reality, instead of He making existence a reality. In Hindu parlance, there is Ishwar – God – and then there is Brahman – the undifferentiated. Existence, I would say, is Brahman, the undifferentiated, out of which came Ishwar (God) and the world of duality.

yes everything that exists is called existence. but every existence is also called a creation. what is not a creation cannot exist. i don't soppose you know of something that has not been created but that exists? appart from god that is.

If God can exist without being created, why can’t existence exist without being created?

but all things have a start and an ending unless you are something or someone that creates all things. existence isn't time. and god is beyond time, he knows everything so he does not wait to see what will happen tommorow. therefore god has existed before time and before eixstence.

The so called start and end are but the change of forms. The essence is eternal, the expressions change. God is the essence and we are the expressions - expressions of God, not creatures of God.

well by god islam means the creator of all things, the being that existed when there was nothing. a being that has no borders nor limmits and isn't the creation of some creator.

If God always existed, then there was never a time when there was nothing. The something that became was but the formless nothing becoming something. If God alone existed, than what came was but the becoming of that God.

i hope my comments are helpfull.

Thank you eselam for commenting on my thread as my special invitee.

 

[darkendless]

But can't we logically conclude something and would it not be valid logically? Of course, it can also be said that logic may not be the ultimate way of seeing. Maybe we ought to consider 'intuition' also.

No, we cannot agree on logic. Based on the sciency way of seeing things, because we have no measurable or identifyable God, he cannot exist. But tell that to a theologan. They'll have a big song and dance about the shadow they saw in the dark whilst stoned off their nut
From our perspective, a creator is unessecary for a universe that leans towards chaos instead of cohesion.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Are you suggesting that if we didn't measure the passing of days that they would stop passing? Is time going to stop if we are not looking? No, it is not. The fact that we have created descriptive words and systems of measurements does not mean time is not real; actually it suggest just the opposite.

I suggest that time is only an arbitrary measurement by man and agreed to by his tribe so as to keep track of events. A seed, let us say, becomes a tree in two years. In two years, man says, because he has calculated it according to his measurements. But as the seed becomes a tree - do either have a two year concept? And all existence continues its existence - the becoming and unbecoming, with man alone measuring it all. Time does not exist outside of man’s imagination.

 

[richardlowellt]

Open your eyes

You mean the eyes that are wired backwards and upside down by this incompetent creator?

and gaze upto the skies, look at the marvel of the creation

I'm gazing, yep I see the sky the light defused causing the color blue on the spectrum, I see clouds, nothing more than condensed moisture moves by the wind, I don't however see anything "created" I see the results of a planet with an atmosphere and circling a distant star.

the subtle ways in which all forms have been created without any flaws

Now here we have a problem, the most advances life on the planet suffers many flaws, little, or in some cases, no defense against parasitic organisms, a frail body wherein as simple slip and fall can kill them, A rib cage that does not fully enclose their most vital organs, the list is long, but to say without any flaws is simple untrue.

, ask someone if they can create a fly?

If you ask a genetic scientist to clone and thereby create a new fly, then yes they can. Science has also created artificial DNA, the creation of life is not that far away.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Well I dont know if there's a creator per se, but theres definitely something out there which is of superior intelligence and is not physical (ie, not aliens or somesuch), which is intensely interested in how we live and devellop. I believe it does intereact with us at times, as Ive experienced it first hand. So although I cant say its the creator of the universe, or even the creator of mankind, maybe shaper is a better name for it?

I mean, to be called the creator of a work of art, do you have to have created the clay for the sculpture from nothing? Isnt it enough to have shaped the clay you found?

Ah, your "shaper" is much like my "animator" eh?