No problems about the time. A slow well considered exchange Is best.
I wrote my last one on a much better machine than my mobile, so I need to break your response up into shorter posts, OK?
Tom
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Is there Really only one True Religion?
- Thread starter Rainbow Mage
- Start date
No problems about the time. A slow well considered exchange Is best.
I wrote my last one on a much better machine than my mobile, so I need to break your response up into shorter posts, OK?
Tom
To OneAnswer,
Abrahamic religion teaches that God wants us to behave a certain way. They refer to correct behavior as moral. But we keep being born little different from our ape ancestors. We are able to learn, to a degree. But we really are not all that good at learning and have a strong tendency to behave the way an animal will. Ancient people did not understand where this instinctive behavior comes from, but we know more now. Immoral behavior is mostly just doing what would help spread our genes in the wild.
It is irrational to conclude that God wants us to behave differently from the way He taught us to over billions of years of evolution. There is no such god.
Tom
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
There is absolutely no evidence for the Exodus, and there would have to be such for a group that large wandering in the desert.
Where are the texts from other people, mentioning this huge group of people in the desert?
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I'm just curious as to what kind of evidence you'd expect to see.
I'm getting a bit ahead of myself. I meant to stick to OneAnswer until I was done.
But this is an important point.
It is not just the lack of evidence for Exodus. There is evidence against. We know more now about Egyptian culture of the day than the authors of Exodus did. They did not enslave groups like that. But if you wanted to live in the lush Nile valley you were required to contribute to the building projects just like Egyptian people did. It was like paying taxes, only required if you want to live there. It is entirely possible that some proto-Israelites left under a cloud because they cheated the Egyptians. But if you read the story they already wanted to go back six weeks after the Parting of the Red Sea. Egypt couldn't have been so bad.
Tom
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
In the beginning, there was no "religion". There was just creation and the Creator.
There were no great lists of rules and regulations...just one small restriction to test man's respect for God's property and their obedience to this one simple rule that created no hardship for them whatsoever.
It was man who created "religion" to worship the one true God (or others of their choosing) in their own way.
It was they who wanted a god to suit their own agenda, so they created a god or gods in their own image. God did not stop them, but allowed humans to place themselves into the various religious 'camps' according to the dictates of their own heart. By where they place themselves, by their own choice, they prove to be who God sees them to be. He will judge them accordingly.
So the more relevant question is, who does God recognize as his own? He knows who they are, even when we don't.
At the end of the day, we will all be caught in the act of being ourselves.
Sabour
Well-Known Member
Can we not direct the conversation towards where we came from and evolution. I think you know where that would lead as I think you know that I don't believe in evolution in the first place.
As for our behavior God doesn't just ask us to be moral. God also provided us a way to do that.
Shad
Veteran Member
Considering the Hebrews were supposedly in Egypt for 400 years there should be something. A temple, a shrine, etc. Yet there is nothing for the Hebrews in Egypt until the Iron Age 1 which is after the exodus and conquest narratives. Yet within this same time line we see temples to Baal a Canaanite God. There is Canaanite pottery, inscriptions, settlements, weapons, etc. We have evidence of nomadic tribes in the Sinai which we can identify yet not one, grave, inscription, etc for the Hebrews. The sites mentioned in the Conquest were already destroyed, except for 3, during which the supposed conquest of the Promised land. How does Joshua conquer Jericho when it was already destroyed centuries before his invasions. The Bible's story does not match to any knowledge we have of these areas so is dismissed for this reasons. New theories are built on evidence we have which is contradicts the Biblical narrative. The early Biblical narratives are part of the mythical foundation charters developed in a culture already present in the area after the events not during the events. Some call it a memo-narrative which is Canaanite not Hebrew. It was assimilated as Hebrews as these people began to identify themselves as different from the local cultures due to the previous breakdown of the Canaanite culture during the Middle Bronze Age Collapse 2.
Whiterain
Get me off of this planet
Religious freedom is a privilege of US Citizens through constitutional right. But if you're
outside of social norms, Pagan for instance, you're more than likely going to be ridiculed, socially out-casted.
It's just how it is unless you live in large communities that hold similar beliefs. It's the same for any faith,
but at least no one is being lynched at this time.
I'm not galvanizing the constitution but more people should read it, it's a good piece.
As far as the true or right religion, it's a matter of cultural beliefs, ancestry and it's
value to people, like Catholicism & Christianity in Europe. The only reason it has
lasted and was ever established there is because it was enforced, or any religious
belief for that matter.
There is not one true religion in this world, there are dozens and Atheism is hip right
now. The Universal God multi-cultural and even American God may be a goal, but it's
not real. For all anybody knows God may hate America, God may want to eradicate
America. God become a political tool eons ago, God loves Rome.
God loves what God wants at his preference.
outside of social norms, Pagan for instance, you're more than likely going to be ridiculed, socially out-casted.
It's just how it is unless you live in large communities that hold similar beliefs. It's the same for any faith,
but at least no one is being lynched at this time.
I'm not galvanizing the constitution but more people should read it, it's a good piece.
As far as the true or right religion, it's a matter of cultural beliefs, ancestry and it's
value to people, like Catholicism & Christianity in Europe. The only reason it has
lasted and was ever established there is because it was enforced, or any religious
belief for that matter.
There is not one true religion in this world, there are dozens and Atheism is hip right
now. The Universal God multi-cultural and even American God may be a goal, but it's
not real. For all anybody knows God may hate America, God may want to eradicate
America. God become a political tool eons ago, God loves Rome.
God loves what God wants at his preference.
At the end of the day, we will all be caught in the act of being ourselves.
Lmao. For some reason, I find that hilarious.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Num 1:45 So were all those that were numbered of the children of Israel, by the house of their fathers, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war in Israel;
Num 1:46 Even all they that were numbered were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.
Num 1:47 But the Levites after the tribe of their fathers were not numbered among them.
SO - supposedly - we have 603550 men 20 years and older.
They would have had wives.
They would have had multiple children.
Add in the Levites, and stragglers, and we obviously have "way" over a million people wandering in a relatively small desert.
They would have left trails, markers, camp sites with fires, garbage heaps with animal bones - and discarded clothing - broken sandals - pottery - baskets - lost trinkets/jewelry - etc., - giant poop piles, burials of those dying during the trek, etc.
Caravans crossed that desert, other people would have noted, and reported to authorities, a group that huge wandering in the desert.
It did not happen.
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Its not at all surprising that the Egyptians didnt record an event such as the Isrealites considering they were utterly defeated by a slave nation. No proud nation would put that in their archives. And if you take into consideration the Egyptians were in the habit of erasing unfavorable historical records, then obviously they are not going to make a record of this one.
However, the writings of a particular egyptian priest of 3bce apparently make mention of the Isrealites in egypt, and their subsequent departure for the the land of Judah. These writings are no longer available, but references to them are found in the writings of Josephus
Manetho - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So there is some historical evidence if you wish to see it as a possiblity.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
The bible lists many wars that the Isrealites had with the inhabitants of the land... those inhabitants record such warfare too.
So there is evidence if you wish to accept it.
I'm not sure what evidence would ever make it plausible that a group of people so large that just the men, standing shoulder-to-shoulder, could have spanned from one side of the Sinai to the other, got lost in that same Sinai for 40 years.
That aside, if the Biblical account was true - i.e. that the indigenous Canaanites were pushed out by non-indigenous Hebrews, then we would expect the archaeological record to show a sharp change: archaeological sites would show that at one specific time across the whole conquered region, the cultural artifacts would all change from one culture to another. Bonus points if this new culture showed a heavy Egyptian influence. We don't see this.
In fact, this is one case where we don't just have an absence of evidence; we have evidence for the contrary position. The archaeological record for the period when the Exodus supposedly took place is generally good, and is "smooth": it shows that the culture that became Israel developed gradually from the indigenous people in the area.
My take on the Exodus story is that Canaan was overthrown by an uprising of a portion of its own people, and then later on, the Exodus story developed as a sort of revisionist "origin story" for the two groups that had now developed... and being a Hebrew-made story, it tried to establish a divine right to the land for the Hebrew people.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
No credible historians teach such. There is no proof of all these wars they were supposed to have fought. We have a gradual movement, and that is what several people - here - that have actually studied this, have told you.
In the Manetho material - did you miss this -
"During this period, disputes raged concerning the oldest civilizations, and so Manetho's account was probably excerpted during this time for use in this argument with significant alterations. Material similar to Manetho's has been found in Lysimakhos of Alexandria, a brother of Philo, and it has been suggested[citation needed] that this was inserted into Manetho."
It also would have been third hand or worse. The article says Josephus didn't have access to the writings, and Manethos would have obviously been writing oral history/myth LONG after the supposed events.
Also from the article -
"Josephus records him admitting to using "nameless oral tradition" (1.105) and "myths and legends" (1.229) for his account, and there is no reason to doubt this, as admissions of this type were common among historians of that era."
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"The third-century B.C.E. Egyptian historian Manethowhose semi-accurate histories stand out ..."
"While Josephus cites Manethos history associating the Israelites with the Hyksos, many modern scholars see problems with Manethos conflation of the expulsion of the Hyksos and the Biblical narrative. Manetho lived many centuries after these events took place, and he may have combined two different narratives, wittingly or unwittingly, when associating the Hyksos and Israelites. Ahmoses defeat of the Hyksos occurred centuries before the traditional date of the Exodus. In addition, the basic premise of the Hyksos and Exodus histories differ: the Hyksos were expelled rulers of Egypt, not slaves, and they were forced out, not pursued."
The Expulsion of the Hyksos: Tel Habuwa excavations reveal the conquest of Tjaru by Ahmose I Biblical Archaeology Society
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outhouse
Atheistically
Ridiculous
No such evidence exist
the conquest factually did not happen.
The Canaanite origins of Israelites is not even up for debate anymore. :slap:
Only biased fanaticism of some theist prevents them from learning anything new.
outhouse
Atheistically
It is not about what evidence exist for Israelites in Egypt.
If they were there, there would be trails leaving Egypt and camps set up that would still exist today in an arid desert where we can see Camps from that period from Nomadic tribes.
We would also see the highlands of Israel being populated from a mass migration as the people arrived.
The problem is, it is all mythology, all of the early history is factual pseudo history.
Monotheism did not start with Abraham, there was no Moses, No exodus, No Noah, no flood, and no Adam and Eve. And no credible historian debates this at all. All that can be debated is what historical core has a possibility of starting this mythology.
NOW lets get on to facts. It is a fact there was no mass migration, we see a gradual increase in houses in Israelites highlands after 1200 BC all the way to 1000BC At this time these people are factually known as proto Israelites because they still resemble the displaced Cananites they evolved from.
These people known as proto Israelites factually used Canaanite mythology and deities, the Canaanite alphabet, and Canaanite pottery.
The picture is so clear there is no debate.
Monotheism did not start as the bible states it did either, it factually started after king Josiahs reforms after 622 BC
Much of their mythology was influence by Mesopotamians while they were there in exile. The Babylonian's oppressors wanted these multi cultural oppressed people to have one religion and at this time multiple traditions were compiled together. that's why we get two creations stories and two different flood stories.
We also had tow deities fused together at this time. The "father" El and the warrior Yahweh.
Sapiens
Polymathematician
So the key elements of the OT (exodus, Moses, commandments, etc.) and the key elements of the NT (Jesus, virgin birth, resurrection, etc.) are all of dubious historicity ... but evolution is denied on the basis of bogus missing links that are of import only to the details, not the core theory? Weird!
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
psychoslice
Veteran Member
I feel that the arrogant one believes their religion is the only true religion, but to me this isn't true religion. True religion is found within each one of us, its not found in an organization of any kind, it a personal experience with what we call God, but what I like to call, our Essence, our true being. Organized religion imprisons us, its stunts our growth, within organized religion we can never truly grow, we are forever under the rules of that religion, never growing, never realizing our true inner being.