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Is there such a thing as a universal religion?
- Thread starter Rival
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Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the wrod catholic means universal but that is only the invitation and not everyone accepts the invitation.
Regiomontanus
Eastern Orthodox
You can lead a horse to water but...
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
A few minutes study could be enough to understand how the speech works. It just requires some attention.
People couldn't understand what Jesus was trying to say because they couldn't hear the words.
"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word".
Like Jesus saying the bread is the flesh, and the wine is the blood. Can you hear it?
I know the bread is the flesh and the wine is the blood. I know it is a fact. I know the bread symbol is in the same position as the flesh symbol, and the wine symbol is in the same position as the blood symbol. I can verify it.
Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood
I know Jesus was able to position his words as other messengers do (like the Bible mentions the Oil in Bones).
If you could listen to messengers positioning their words instead of trying to attach their words to things that you already know, then you might learn something.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Do you have a point to make about how some messengers position their words incorrectly.
If so, explain why that matters so much.
BTW, Jesus did not position any words since He did not write the NT.
The same holds true for Muhammad and the Qur'an.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
The specific positioning of their words being beyond coincidence shows the author (or original speaker) intent.
All so-called "messengers of God" could be scientifically sorted into two groups being those that can speak positioning their words and those that don't.
It matters as messengers that do position their words have some good things to say, but they also have some evil things to say. But because all things said are as word positioning, then there are no evil things actually being said.
Like the Bible talks about eating bread, and drinking wine. But it also talks about eating the flesh of men and drinking their blood.
So when the bread is the flesh and the wine is the blood, then it can be understood there was no evil being said.
"To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings". Proverbs
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus and Muhammad did not write any scriptures so the positioning of words came from the authors of the NT and the Qur'an.
Moreover, positioning can also get changed during translation into English language.
That is a moot point since Jesus and Muhammad did not write any scriptures so the positioning of words came from the authors of the NT and the Qur'an.
However, messengers of God can be sorted into two groups, the ones who did not write their own scriptures and the ones who did...
The only messengers of God who penned their scriptures in their own hands were the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Consider in post 176 @paarsurrey quoted some pages of the writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who spoke about the combined oil, olive tree, and star verse of the Quran.
And he claims what Baha'u'llah also claims:
"Mirza Ghulam Ahmad proclaimed that he was the Promised Messiah and Mahdi. He claimed to be the fulfilment of various prophecies found in world religions regarding the second coming of their founders".
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Wikipedia
I was able to respond to the quoted words with showing that he didn't position his words oil, olive tree, and star. Therefore I would have to scientifically put him into the group of so-called messengers that don't position the words that they say.
So would you have to scientifically put Mirza Ghulam Ahmad into your same group as the Bab and Baha'u'llah?
As it is said Mirza Ghulam Ahmad wrote more than 90 books.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
First I have to say that there is nothing scientific about any religion.
Secondly, just because a man wrote a lot of books that does not make him a messenger of God.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad proclaimed that he was the Promised Messiah and Mahdi. I do not believe that was who he claimed to be.
I don't know whether he was self-deluded or whether he was outright fraudulent, but either way, I hope he gets what's coming to him.
62. Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years # 37
The Dispensation of Bahá’u’lláh will last until the coming of the next Manifestation of God, Whose advent will not take place before at least “a full thousand years” will have elapsed. Bahá’u’lláh cautions against ascribing to “this verse” anything other than its “obvious meaning”, and in one of His Tablets, He specifies that “each year” of this thousand year period consists of “twelve months according to the Qur’án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayán”.
The intimation of His Revelation to Bahá’u’lláh in the Síyáh-Chál of Ṭihrán, in October 1852, marks the birth of His Prophetic Mission and hence the commencement of the one thousand years or more that must elapse before the appearance of the next Manifestation of God.
“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather, follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise. Erelong shall clamorous voices be raised in most lands. Shun them, O My people, and follow not the iniquitous and evil-hearted. This is that of which We gave you forewarning when We were dwelling in ‘Iráq, then later while in the Land of Mystery, and now from this Resplendent Spot.”
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
I disagree with your first, and I agree with your second.
In the Quran there is a verse that says "the mountains shall be as wool". And Baha'u'llah speaks of the verse:
"Will ye not recognize how the mountains have become like flocks of wool". Baha'u'llah.
But it seems that Baha'u'llah doesn't actually say anything about it. There is no clear explanation from him.
I know it is the specific positioning of the words. The mountain is as wool because the mountain symbol is in the same position as sheep symbol.
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Like the Bible mentioning judgement between cattle, goats, and sheep.
Cattle is in the valley position:
"For thus saith the Lord, Ye shall not see wind, neither shall ye see rain; yet that valley shall be filled with water, that ye may drink, both ye, and your cattle, and your beasts". 1 kings
Goat is in the hill position:
"The high hills are a refuge for the wild goats; and the rocks for the conies". Psalm
So as you can see the specific word positioning is very scientific, and clearly the mountains are as wool.
Do you disagree?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I sort of understand about the word positioning but I don't understand why you think that is scientific.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Is there such a thing as a universal religion?
Now contemplate the following:
95:1 In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
95:2 By the Fig and the Olive,
95:3 And by Mount Sinai,
95:4 And by this Town of Security,
95:5 Surely, We have created man in the best make; Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
Right?
Regards
________________________
Original Arabic narration/text from Muhammad's time, is below:
95:1 بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ ﴿۱
95:2 وَالتِّیۡنِ وَالزَّیۡتُوۡنِ ۙ﴿۲
95:3 وَطُوۡرِ سِیۡنِیۡنَ ۙ﴿۳
95:4 وَہٰذَا الۡبَلَدِ الۡاَمِیۡنِ ۙ﴿۴
95:5 لَقَدۡ خَلَقۡنَا الۡاِنۡسَانَ فِیۡۤ اَحۡسَنِ تَقۡوِیۡمٍ ۫﴿۵
Right?
Quranic words/sentences/verses could have 7/70 and or more correct explanations, provided these are within the context of some preceding verses and some following verses and within the cope of the very short chapter named the Opener (Arabic Al-Fatihah):
Now contemplate the following:
95:1 In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
95:2 By the Fig and the Olive,
95:3 And by Mount Sinai,
95:4 And by this Town of Security,
95:5 Surely, We have created man in the best make; Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
Right?
Regards
________________________
Original Arabic narration/text from Muhammad's time, is below:
95:1 بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ ﴿۱
95:2 وَالتِّیۡنِ وَالزَّیۡتُوۡنِ ۙ﴿۲
95:3 وَطُوۡرِ سِیۡنِیۡنَ ۙ﴿۳
95:4 وَہٰذَا الۡبَلَدِ الۡاَمِیۡنِ ۙ﴿۴
95:5 لَقَدۡ خَلَقۡنَا الۡاِنۡسَانَ فِیۡۤ اَحۡسَنِ تَقۡوِیۡمٍ ۫﴿۵
Right?
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WonderingWorrier
Active Member
If you can sort of understand that I am telling you how words/symbols are being positioned in speech, then you should also be able to tell me how other words are positioned and we would be in agreement of what is being said.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Correct.
It is good you are testing what I said to you. You are showing me another Olive verse from the Quran.
I know the Fig tree and the Olive tree are in the same position. Like I showed you before the Olive tree is in same position as Star, I can also show you the Fig tree is in the same position as Star.
Here:
"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind". Revelation
So Olive is as Star, and Fig is also as Star. Because they share the same position.
I can also show you other ways that confirms the fig and the olive together.
Like I can show you according to the Bible the Olive tree is planted in the Wilderness, and the Wilderness is as Eden, and Adam and Eve wore Fig leaves in Eden. Therefore both the Olive tree and the Fig tree are positioned in Eden.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
We can see Baha'u'llah mentions Jesus 98 times in the searchable records of his writings held at the Bahai Library.
So since he is talking about Biblical things he is therefore referring to the Biblical words.
Baha'u'llah speaks of Bread 14 times.
Baha'u'llah speaks of Oil 7 times.
Baha'u'llah speaks of Wine 129 times.
We can listen to exactly what Baha'u'llah says about Bread, Oil, and Wine.
Can you take a look and tell me what you think?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I can take a look if I ever have time and if I can find those passages.
How did you find those?
I would rather be looking at the Writings of Baha'u'llah than replying to posts from Christians but I have my duties.
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WonderingWorrier
Active Member
There is a search box in the top right corner of the online Bahai library. You can search there for any word. It then takes you to a search page that shows numbers of results, and small snippets of what is being said, and clicking on any of the results will jump to the page it is from for more context.
Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith
So we can have a look at everything Baha'u'llah says about any specific Biblical word. Like:
Bread:
Oil:
Wine:
Baha'u'llah speaks of many different biblical words. Bread, Oil, and Wine for example. We could also take a look at other biblical words that he talks about. We can listen to everything Baha'u'llah said, one word at a time.
So what exactly can we learn of the biblical bread, oil, and wine from Baha'u'llah?
Take a look. Tell me what you think.
That is covered in other topics. Basically this link will explain the Baha'i view of the station of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.Consider in post 176 @paarsurrey quoted some pages of the writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who spoke about the combined oil, olive tree, and star verse of the Quran.
And he claims what Baha'u'llah also claims:
"Mirza Ghulam Ahmad proclaimed that he was the Promised Messiah and Mahdi. He claimed to be the fulfilment of various prophecies found in world religions regarding the second coming of their founders".
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I was able to respond to the quoted words with showing that he didn't position his words oil, olive tree, and star. Therefore I would have to scientifically put him into the group of so-called messengers that don't position the words that they say.
So would you have to scientifically put Mirza Ghulam Ahmad into your same group as the Bab and Baha'u'llah?
As it is said Mirza Ghulam Ahmad wrote more than 90 books.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad studied Holy writings and even said he had mastered the writings of the Bab. Both Baha'u'llah and the Bab were not schooled in religious studies. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad also changed his outlook on faith over the years.
Interaction with The People of Bahá: A response to Ahmadi Answers
This is the third response in the series of responses to a video by Ahmadi Answers attacking the Bahá’í Faith. To read the first piece, click here. To read the second piece, click here. To re…
bahaipen.wordpress.com
Regards Tony
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
That is covered in other topics. Basically this link will explain the Baha'i view of the station of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad studied Holy writings and even said he had mastered the writings of the Bab. Both Baha'u'llah and the Bab were not schooled in religious studies. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad also changed his outlook on faith over the years.
Interaction with The People of Bahá: A response to Ahmadi Answers
This is the third response in the series of responses to a video by Ahmadi Answers attacking the Bahá’í Faith. To read the first piece, click here. To read the second piece, click here. To re…
Regards Tony
Seems you are saying the Bab and Baha'u'llah never read the Quran or the Bible. But Baha'u'llah talks a lot about Jesus and Bible stories. Seems that you are saying the Bab and Baha'u'llah never changed their outlook.
Your view of the station of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is not clear.
Muffled
Jesus in me
95:4. We have indeed created man in the best of moulds - Ali translation "Moulds" is probably not the best word, "forms" would be better.