isa (as) /jesus(pbuh)

[Jeremy Mason]

If this isn't wishful thinking then I don't know what is.

Without followers, there is no religion, regardless of the scriptures.

With all due respect, I thought my point was simple. People will violate Scripture. The Bible says that people who continue to do so are not followers in God's eye's.

Your right about the need for a religion to have followers, knowing that God ultimately decides who they are is humbling.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

How long did it take for you to think up that one...

Well......

It's the truth....You said religion was defined by scripture....and I assure you, it isn't. You might like to think it is but it isn't. No matter how many times you open your bible....the words on the page won't change.....but what is obviously different is the interpretation people get from what they read. Everything else is custom, tradition...ritual...

This is a joke, right?

Heck no.If it was.....we'd both be laughing. Hey....you opened your mouth and made the claim not me. It's no surprise that there are tribes on the planet with no written scripture but their way of life is defined by their long held traditions. Mybe the joke is on you...:sarcastic

 

[Jeremy Mason]

[/quote]

Well......

It's the truth....You said religion was defined by scripture....and I assure you, it isn't. You might like to think it is but it isn't. No matter how many times you open your bible....the words on the page won't change.....but what is obviously different is the interpretation people get from what they read. Everything else is custom, tradition...ritual...

Wow DP, your like a dog circling around and around, looking for a place to sit. Call it what you want, Scripture, tradition, custom or habit. If you fail to recognize your better judgment, God will know about it.

Heck no.If it was.....we'd both be laughing. Hey....you opened your mouth and made the claim not me. It's no surprise that there are tribes on the planet with no written scripture but their way of life is defined by their long held traditions. Mybe the joke is on you...:sarcastic

There are tribes on the planet with no written scripture? No way! Thanks DP for clarifying that one for me. :biglaugh:Now I'm laughing.

 

[ayani]

Are you seriously accusing the Muslims today of beheading their neighbours or hate them just because they are of a different religion, ayani?

I think i no longer know you, as i thought i would, in the past. I'm really sad and disappointed that you think of me and the muslims here in this way. I'm honestly shocked!

no, Abu. i was referring to the struggles faced by early Muslims. specifically, the early ummah, and the pressure it was under from polytheistic neighbors.

where do you read me accusing Muslims of atrocities? i know very well and so do you that the vast majority of faithful Muslims are nothing like those who "behead" and "hate". murder and hatred should not be indigenous sentiments of any faith. the Muslims i know and have known are no terrorists, and they condemn harshly and with grief acts of terrorism. Abu, i am comparing the armed struggles of the early persecuted Muslims to the struggles of early persecuted Christians, that is all.

for example, in the case of the early ummah- many Muslims' neighbors were opposed to Islam, fighting Muhammad, and fighting Muslims. they did not believe in Islam, and were unkind to Muslim families. the same could be said for early Christians. yet within Muhammad's life time, defensive and expansionist wars / campaigns were undertaken, to fight back physically, and secure land for Islam, to spread the faith, etc.

my question was, why the defensive and offensive war? my point was simply that Quranically, military / political and religious power are wedded. Islam, if one reads the entire Quran as a plan for Islam as well as its message, is not meant to be a faith of the minority who are small in the world, but of the ruling majority. there are verses of the Quran which tell Muhammad that his people will set foot into new lands, triumphant, that they will subdue their enemies, and that those who have waged war against Muhammad shall be punished.

who will do the punishing? Allah? humans? humans carrying out the will of Allah? is it the will of Allah for humans to behave cruelly towards one another because someone is first cruel or unkind to them? doesn't this directly contradict the message and example of Jesus, held by Islam to be a valid messenger? Jesus gave humans some very clear commands about humility, patience, perseverance, and heavenly vs. worldly triumph. for Jesus, the worldly and the heavenly kingdoms were very different. it is true that many political leaders professing Christ have done un-Christ-like things in their vision of wedded military and religious power. but that was not the message of Jesus, who asked us to love and serve God and love and serve one another, and make disciples of all peoples.

there are also Quranic verses which tell the Muslim ummah to fight against their enemies until they are subdued, and pay a poll tax. so clearly here, if the ummah acts through the words and commands and allowances of the Quran, Islam is meant to be not only a faith, but an over-arching political system, whose scope encompasses non-Muslims as well.

compare this, simply, to the lives and sufferings of early Christians, the message of Christ, and the hopes expressed in Christianity. how both communities viewed worldly gain, heavenly gain, persecution, and the meaning of triumph.

 

[ayani]

I'd like to say that the christian history is not without its "Jihad" as well.

oh, i know. very bloody and terrible ones, too.

but... ultimately, a Christian needs to follow Christ, reflect Christ, and serve Christ. Christian history has indeed been violent. but what is very different is that the violence does not stem from the example and commands of Jesus, but the triumphalist, indignant, violent anger of men.

one fellow who came from Islam to following Jesus said "ask God to show you the truth. He may not lead you to Christianity, but He will certainly lead you to Christ". i do see something of what he means. much of Christian history does not speak well of itself. but the living example of Christ, which is where we must draw our water from, speaks very well, imo.

 

[ayani]

nawab ~

the fist example is not Jesus speaking of Himself- He is telling an illustrative story about a king. He is comparing the violent wrath of the king to the anger of God against those who do not use their gifts for His cause, but bury them in the earth, and waste their lives, and work against God. so no, this person speaking is not Jesus commanding people to be killed, but Jesus speaking about the wrath of an earthly king to illustrate the purpose that God has for us- to multiply our gifts for His cause, not bury them.

in the second example, Jesus asks His disciples to but swords. later, one of His disciples uses that sword against a man who has come to take Jesus, to try and kill Him. Jesus rebukes that disciple, and asks us not to live nor die by the sword. then, in Luke's Gospel, he heals the ear of the man who was cut. so why ask to buy a sword? Jesus knew all. perhaps to give a command the disciples would understand at the hour (buy a sword) and then demonstrate how when one walks with God, one must neither live nor die by a sword. Jesus does not use the sword. Jesus rebukes the violent, heals the wounded man, and goes on to His death.

the last example- Jesus withers the fig tree. He is showing that like the tree that does not bear fruit, a human whose spirit does not bear good, Godly fruit will wither, and be of no use to God. yes, Jesus withers a fig tree. that may sound odd or unkind to the fig tree. yet, is a fig tree akin to a human life? withering a fig tree is no where akin to physically expelling one's enemies from their homes in the name of one's god, or permitting mutilation in retaliation for theft.

 

[nawab]

Its not true Jesus told his followers to sell their garments to buy swords. He even said if anybody doesnt accepts Jesus to be his king bring them here and slay them. so Jesus was also kind of warring in the bible.

 

[ayani]

Its not true Jesus told his followers to sell their garments to buy swords. He even said if anybody doesnt accepts Jesus to be his king bring them here and slay them. so Jesus was also kind of warring in the bible.

nawab, i just explained that the verse you quoted is not Jesus commanding people to be killed, if they will not follow Him.

rather, Jesus is using a teaching story- the character speaking is a king in Jesus' story. the king represents God, who will be angry with those who do not use their gifts for HIm. a worldly king would kill. Jesus compares God's standards to the king's, but He is still speaking in a parable.

Jesus is not saying to bring people and slay them. Jesus is saying that like an angry king, God will deal harshly with those who bury their spiritual and material gifts. does Jesus kill anyone? does He command anyone to be killed? no. this is a parable, an illustration. not a command for His disciples to go and find, drag before Him and slaughter those who are not Christian.

 

[ayani]

Jesus is not warring in the traditional sense - He is working for God's kingdom with His very life, even unto death. but the death is not a death in war, fighting with swords, but a humble, shameful, cruel death - from which He was raised. life, forgiveness, and mercy conquering death and sin.

Jesus is not at war with swords- Jesus is at spiritual war, and the spiritual nature of that battle is made very, very clear by Jesus. in Islam, jihad can be physical, or spiritual- the better jihad is to fight against one's self. but Jesus was clear that armed fighting is not for those who truly wish to walk His path. those who lose their lives, will gain them.

 

[nawab]

Either you dont understand english or you are also trained in the Evangelist speaking techniques.

Jesus said clearly if you do not accept me to be your king then bring them her and slay them ok,

whats the meaning behind this, you have to understand this verse literally.

Remeber when Jesus said put down your swords those who live by the sword die by the sword, didnt Jesus know this theory before, then why he gathered his group to make a last stand against the Jews but the Jews were cleverer than Jesus though, the Jews came with Roman soldiers. so Jesus said put down your swords those who live by the sword die by the sword. please explain here, is Jesus being coward or he just rememeber this theory now

 

[McBell]

Either you dont understand english or you are also trained in the Evangelist speaking techniques.

Jesus said clearly if you do not accept me to be your king then bring them her and slay them ok,

whats the meaning behind this, you have to understand this verse literally.

Remeber when Jesus said put down your swords those who live by the sword die by the sword, didnt Jesus know this theory before, then why he gathered his group to make a last stand against the Jews but the Jews were cleverer than Jesus though, the Jews came with Roman soldiers. so Jesus said put down your swords those who live by the sword die by the sword. please explain here, is Jesus being coward or he just rememeber this theory now

kettle, meet pot

 

[Azakel]

kettle, meet pot

That's what I was thinking.

 

[ayani]

nawab ~ i do not think Jesus was being cowardly.

a Christian would say that He was going to His death, knowing what was ahead. He did not plan to fight the soldiers who came for Him- previously, He prophesies about His death, and says that He must suffer much and then be raised on the third day. so it's not as though He had planned to rebel all the time, but then got scared. if one reads the Gospels, one can see that He knew that He would be killed. one reads Jesus being very aware that His enemies were seeking to get rid of Him, trick Him, or find some way to stop Him and His disciples.

what is special about Jesus, to Christians, is exactly that He didn't plan to fight, rebel, and kill His enemies. practically speaking, He could have - He had thousands of people who followed Him, loved Him, and supported Him. He knew that heavenly triumph was not in stepping over people, but in submitting to God's will, and offering one's self entirely for God and for one's brothers and sisters. and this sacrifice- giving one's life to God and to those who are suffering - can be described as the central message of Jesus.

nawab, i do understand English. and what one must understand is that when Jesus speaks in parables / stories, He is not speaking literally. wheat is not wheat, but human beings. leaven is not leaven, but doctrines or ways of life. a master is not a worldly master of a house, but God Himself. some times people get the parables and understand their allegorical meanings, sometimes not. many of His disciples didn't understand when He first spoke them- He had to explain.

this is part of what Jesus is like, how He taught, and what He did.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Wow DP, your like a dog circling around and around, looking for a place to sit. Call it what you want, Scripture, tradition, custom or habit. If you fail to recognize your better judgment, God will know about it.

Man...are you serious...?...You said it, Not Me.("Religion is defined by it's Scripture not it's followers.")...I only responded to your incorrect statement...:sarcastic

There are tribes on the planet with no written scripture? No way! Thanks DP for clarifying that one for me. Now I'm laughing.

Yep.....You're welcome......

 

[ayani]

also, just speaking in a general way on a number of issues.

Nawab had submitted some Biblical verses he felt pointed to Jesus being a violent man, or advocating violence. these points were explained or clarified, but more generally; to attempt to portray Jesus as one advocating violence, is the intent to give Jesus a negative image? does one associate violence with negativity? why the attempt to "show" that Jesus commanded violence, or allowed it, or supported it? in order to make His example closer to that of Muhammad, who allowed and sanctioned violence from time to time? if Jesus' way was a way of non-violent peace, and Muhammd's way was generally a way of peace, but allowing for violence, why try to then reinterpret Jesus' example? is there anything inherently wrong in Muhammad's example of general peace, but allowing for violence sometimes, in relation to Jesus' example, to warrant revisionism?

if the two messengers are from the same source, why read into Jesus' message and actions what is not there, if Jesus' way and Muhammad's way are equal and both valid?

there is much to admire and study in Islam- the discipline of daily prayer, emphasis on academics, a long and impressive history, cultural richness, contributions to science, etc. there is much to admire in Jesus- His sacrifice, humility, courage, compassion, ect. no one would deny these are noble, admirable, and some would add Godly qualities.

if one finds Jesus' message and call to be simple, clear, holy, and the best path, what is wrong with following it? a "muslim" literally means "one who submits". the Asad commentaries on the Quran make great importance of this meaning. i believe that if one follows Jesus, one also follows in God's way. what is wrong with this? with having come to Islam, lived, prayed, and studied as a Muslim, and having heard and seen the call of God in a different direction, and following Jesus instead of the Quran? remember, i didn't identify as Sunni as a Muslim, but as Quran-alone. i was hopeful that a sola-scriptura approach to Islam, that left out the often startling details of Muhammad's life and mission, would and could give Islam new life, freedom, vibrancy, and universal meaning. often, a Muslim will have to explain, defend, or rationalize in support of Muhammad's life, practices, example, choices, mission, etc. as i said earlier, it takes a lot of faith, pride, and trust in Muhammad for Muslims to explain, defend, and contextualize many of the things he did- the faith is that if he was God's chosen messenger, many things that he did or allowed are ok, in the greater picture, even if one's mind or heart can not understand them. i have also defended and explained these issues to non-Muslims- about the hadith, the meanings of jihad, etc. and in these forums as well as off-line, one sees these debates and issues coming up again and again.

what does it mean to really respect Jesus? i'd answer, in part, to see Him, to recognize Him, to take up one's cross with Him, follow Him, and listen to Him. for a Christian, if one loses one's life to Jesus, one will find it again- a new, better, sanctified and Spirit-filled life. Jesus has commanded us to love God with all one's heart and soul and strength, and love one's neighbor (the suffering, the feared, the hated, and one's enemies) as one's self, in His name as He has fist loved us, and done these things, and showed us the way in Him.

what is inherently wrong with this path, Quranically or Islamically, that a Muslim would object to? what reasons for objection would a Muslim find if one of his Muslim brothers or sisters decided to follow Jesus? is one still not following a valid messenger? and a messenger described in remarkable, unsurpassed ways in the Quran?

 

[nawab]

If Jesus didnt plan to kill his enemies WHY GATHER THE SWORDS TO PUT UP A SHOW,

If Jesus is talking in parables (Metaphornically) couldnt this Death be separation as well, as Adam was dead couldnt Jesus be dead in a spritual sense that he was separeted from God and not literally dead

Jesus Scared of what, can you imagine a God who is Scared, According to this beleive
I would be a better person than this God at least I am not scared of doing something which is right even if i have to die for it

Thousands of people were not enough to win over Romans and Jews

Exactly when his diciples couldnt understand him completely, how can they inform you or account for Jesus ministry. so all these mistakes and contradictions in the bible are from Jesus disciples then

Jesus taught that keep swords, sell your garments to buy swords but when it is the time to fight, put down your swords those who live by the sword die by the sword.

nawab ~ i do not think Jesus was being cowardly.

a Christian would say that He was going to His death, knowing what was ahead. He did not plan to fight the soldiers who came for Him- previously, He prophesies about His death, and says that He must suffer much and then be raised on the third day. so it's not as though He had planned to rebel all the time, but then got scared. if one reads the Gospels, one can see that He knew that He would be killed. one reads Jesus being very aware that His enemies were seeking to get rid of Him, trick Him, or find some way to stop Him and His disciples.

what is special about Jesus, to Christians, is exactly that He didn't plan to fight, rebel, and kill His enemies. practically speaking, He could have - He had thousands of people who followed Him, loved Him, and supported Him. He knew that heavenly triumph was not in stepping over people, but in submitting to God's will, and offering one's self entirely for God and for one's brothers and sisters. and this sacrifice- giving one's life to God and to those who are suffering - can be described as the central message of Jesus.

nawab, i do understand English. and what one must understand is that when Jesus speaks in parables / stories, He is not speaking literally. wheat is not wheat, but human beings. leaven is not leaven, but doctrines or ways of life. a master is not a worldly master of a house, but God Himself. some times people get the parables and understand their allegorical meanings, sometimes not. many of His disciples didn't understand when He first spoke them- He had to explain.

this is part of what Jesus is like, how He taught, and what He did.

 

[maro]

one question i do have - why implement jihad to spread or secure a faith at all?

yet why turn to armed struggle to defeat worldly enemies?

Allah says : [21:107] We sent thee not, but as a mercy for all creatures.
we believe Islam is the final mesage from Allah to mankind . its A'qeda "set of beliefs " is the onle way to paradise in the hereafter , and its shari'ah "rules and practices" is the only way of achieving stability and happiness of mankind,
and that's why we have a religious obligation to convey the message to all people , and wether they accept it or not , it's their problem , not ours

and before conveying it , we should protect it at the first place , and that's why exactly Gihad " with its military meaning " is prescribed in islam ..(1)to protect the message (2) to convey the message
let's assume that some muslims traveled to call people to islam without any kind of protection , what do you think the reaction of the two great empires at that time..(persia and Rome )

A)welcome them with roses
B)kill them immediately
c)kill them immedietly and then send an army to eradicate the new religion in its birth place

to sum up , the army was meant to secure the da'wah "calling people for Islam " and i am not exagerating when i say that the people were happy to see the muslims liberating them from the oppression and discrimination they suffered from under the rule of the two great empires

Egypt , for example , was under the Roman rule , the Roman catholics were persecuting the orthodox coptics in Egypt ,

The great companion "Amr Ibn Al A 'as " ( the leader of the muslim army ) liberated the coptics from the persecution and heavy taxes they had to pay, and granted them , for the first time , the freedom of belief and practice,
the egyptians admired the muslims for what they did, and after taking the time to learn Islam , they loved the religion of allah alhamdullilah,
And here we are, not4me , cordoba , einstein and me , Egyptian muslims who love Islam more than anything else , and we are thankful to the brave early muslims who faced a huge empire like Rome to deliver that great religion to us ,and thankful to Allah that we were not born in shirk like our ancestors..
All over Egypt ,you can find streets and mosques named after "Amr IBn AL A'as " as a sign of being grateful to that man ,
regarding the coptics who chose to keep their religion , they lived side by side with muslims , enjoying their civil rights , and there are orthodox christians in egypt untill now (5 % or less ) ,
IT's also worth mentioning ,that when the muslim army was moving forwards, some muslims were staying in every country to teach people Islam , and some of those who accepted Islam were joining the army..
may be sister Peace can tell us more about morocco , but as far as i know , the original inhabitants of that area (AL Barbar ) formed the majority of the army that went to Andalusia , and the arabs were only a minority in that army , and even the leader "Tareq Ibn Zeyad " was from the Barbar too...
i guess i don't need to tell you what does Andalusia represnt to the west ,and how the islamic civilization their ended dramaticaly and brutaly . Andalusia is the bridge over which europe passed from the dark ages to the Renaissance ,

When i talked about the power , i didn't clarify that the reason behind encouraging it in Islam ,is the same major purpose of gihad (1) to protect the message (2) to convey the message ,
the muslims were about to be eradicated by the the mongols " al tatar ', and unless they failed to put the flame of Gihad in the muslims' souls down , Islam would have been something from the past now ,
The muslims also survived the crusades and survived the occupation of the othmani empire, because of the Gihad . It's true we didn't heal from the consequences of that occupation yet , but the giant is still there , tired and injured , but still there alhamdullilah..
i remeber what "Rib'y Ibn Amer " said to Rustum , the commander of the persian Army ,
the first question the Persians put to Ribiyy was about the reason that made the Arabs come out to fight the great empire. Ribiyy said:
“It is God who ordered us so that we can save whoever is willing to be saved from the worship of creatures to the worship of God, and from the narrowness of this life to a great expanse, and from the oppression practiced by other faiths to the justice ensured to all under Islam. He sent us with His message to His creatures so that we can call on them to accept His faith. Whoever accepts it is acceptable to us and we leave them alone. Those who reject it we will fight until we get what God has promised.”

Gihad is the destiny of this Ummah wether we like it or not , we fight proudly to protect the last Revealation fron Allah to mankind.. and if prophet Jesus (PBUH) was alive now .. trust me .. he was the first one to join the gihad..i know you think otherwise .. and i have nothing to say to you but

[34:24]....... and certain it is that either we or ye are on right guidance or in manifest error "

in other words, leave

the things of the world to the world- man can despise and kill the body and despise one's professed faith, but he can not kill the soul or extinguish the flame of belief, nor take that soul from God. that was the early Christian approach in face of murderous persecution, at least.

i promise to read about that early christian approach , from both christian and islamic POV's ,
but just for the record , that was the early muslims approach too during the stage of mecca . In mecca , the muslims were completely prohibited to use any kind of power to defend themselves , and that prohibition was not removed untill they migrated to Al madina..

[4:77] Hast thou not turned thy vision to those who were told to hold back their hands (from fight) but establish regular prayers and spend in regular Charity? When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! a section of them feared men as - or even more than - they should have feared Allah...."

one believes one's self to be right, and so one uses defensive and offensive force as well as expansionist tactics to secure larger parts of the world in the name of that right view.

yes we believe Islam to be the truth , and we wish for all humanity to be guided to its lord . However , we fight not to secure larger parts of the world , but to convey the message to larger part of the world as i said before , It's all about conveying the message to the current and future generations..

"give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's" and "My kingdom is not of this world".

within Islam , the world and heaven are wedded

True , the world and heaven are wedded . unlike christianity , Islam wants to achieve the kingdom of god in this life before the after life . and that's exactly why dictatorships and greedy capitalists can't tolerate Islam becuse it restricts their absloute power ,and make the power to allah alone ...and that's why a brutal war is waged against it and its symbols everwhere..

 

[Dirty Penguin]

what reasons for objection would a Muslim find if one of his Muslim brothers or sisters decided to follow Jesus?

Who says Muslims "don't" follow Yeshua (Isa)...(Yasu)....??????

They do....

As I said earlier, he is mentioned more times in the quran than any other messenger with great respect to him and his mother. Muslims will tell you, because I have friends who repeat this to me, ...."No Muslim is a Muslim unless he believes in Isa al masiah (ibm Maryum).

Where the muslim draws the line with christianity is the view by "some" christians who deify Yeshua, Yeshua being the son (lineage) to Allah, "original sin, keeping the law and the original sabbath.........(there may be more but can't think of them now). This is were some of the split happaens. They don't agree with the christian interpretation of Yeshua.

is one still not following a valid messenger? and a messenger described in remarkable, unsurpassed ways in the Quran?

Not if it appears to contradict what the messenger taught. There is a difference between what Yeshua taught and what Paul taught.

 

[gnostic]

You have quoted the following, Abu Khalid:

[32] Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": but if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith. (Quran 3:32)

[144] Muhammad is no more than a Messenger: many were the Messengers that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve him) with gratitude. (Quran 3:144)

I find this is totally strange.

If Allah is the true author of the Qur'an, then why do he write something like this?

It is totally illogical for a god to say this. It sounds more like something Mohammad would say, not a god, to elevate himself.

Mohammed is a prophet like those who were before him, were sent to guide people, not to be worshipped beside Allah.

For the Qur'an and the Hadith to repeatedly say that Muhammad is the Last Messenger or Last Prophet, sounds like nothing more than propaganda to me.

Muslims seemed to idolise Muhammad to the point of being godlike, just as the Christians have done with Jesus.

 

[YmirGF]

If Jesus didnt plan to kill his enemies WHY GATHER THE SWORDS TO PUT UP A SHOW,

because you are misunderstanding what is said

Jesus Scared of what, can you imagine a God who is Scared, According to this beleive I would be a better person than this God at least I am not scared of doing something which is right even if i have to die for it

In my view, that makes you a teensy bit dangerous.

Jesus taught that keep swords, sell your garments to buy swords but when it is the time to fight, put down your swords those who live by the sword die by the sword.

Think about it Nawab, if you sell everything including your clothes, to buy a sword, what are you left with. You are naked and have only a sword to defend yourself. The meaning is pretty clear. Since the followers of Christ did not trot about totally naked then it is unlikely there what much confusion about what he really meant. In my view, buying the sword means that you have nothing else with which to defend yourself. Without a sword, you do not require defense, as you are unarmed. In theory, only a brutal animal would kill an unarmed person.

Given that Muhammed (Allah) allowed his followers to take up the sword to defend themselves, then clearly, they did not believe that God alone could suffice. Therefore their belief in Allah was insufficient to protect them which is a bit odd considering that Allah is all powerful. Beside this, how, exactly, is spreading Islam with a mighty army of well equipped followers not compulsion? If you saw an army of 100,000 Jehova Witnesses amassed on the horizon, who demanded you listen to them about their religion, wouldn't you feel a tiny bit intimidated and COMPELLED to listen to them? Would you really argue with people that had swords and short tempers?