isa (as) /jesus(pbuh)

[gnostic]

Frubals to you, Maro, for answering my questions with sincerity, and without anger and judgement.

 

[Peace]

Is our love to prophet Muhamad (PBUH) excessive ? yes it's , wether you like it or not
does that mean we get hurt when he is insulted ? yes ,we do
does that mean we have the right to express that in a violent way ? certainly not ,because this is against what he has teached us..
are there some ignorant who still express their feeling violently ? yes ,there are , and Islam is not responsible for that , because we don't judge Islam by people , but we judge the people by Islam , and even if you are going to judge Islam by people , why always focusing on the bad examples and ignoring the good ones
Is our love to prophet Muhhamad (pbuh) blind ? certainly not , how can it be blind when we know every tiny detail of his life ,
i challege anyone to bring any other human being whose life is recorded with its tiny details like our prophet (pbuh) ,
Even jesus (PBUH),with all our love and respect to him , the only known period of his life from the bibles is three years ,no more ( from 30 to 33 ) , and only the wide lines are mentioned ,not the tiny details...

:claps: Masha'Allah great post as all your posts are dear sister
Yes, our love for our beloved Prophet peace be upon him knows no bound and I wish I were only a servant in his house so as to serve him day and night.

Peace

 

[TashaN]

So those who you called ignorant in this thread POST#234, you agree with?

No comment!

 

[McBell]

No comment!

Then how am I supposed to answer your question:

You seriously think i would call those who disagree with me ignorants?
​

with anything other than "yes?"
For it seems to me that you have done just that in post #234 and now you are avoiding that you did.

 

[TashaN]

Then how am I supposed to answer your question:

You seriously think i would call those who disagree with me ignorants?​

with anything other than "yes?"
For it seems to me that you have done just that in post #234 and now you are avoiding that you did.

Those who treat prophet Mohammed as if he were Godlike are ignorants, and that's NOT my opinion but the what Prophet Mohammed taught. So, i didn't say that those who disagree with me are ignorants. Got it?

 

[McBell]

Those who treat prophet Mohammed as if he were Godlike are ignorants, and that's NOT my opinion but the what Prophet Mohammed taught. So, i didn't say that those who disagree with me are ignorants. Got it?

And you still have not answered the question.
Interesting.

Though I gotta give you a "D" at your attempt to strawman.

 

[McBell]

Those who treat prophet Mohammed as if he were Godlike are ignorants, and that's NOT my opinion but the what Prophet Mohammed taught. So, i didn't say that those who disagree with me are ignorants. Got it?

So you are saying that it is not your opinion that those who treat Mohammad as if he were a God are ignorant even though it is what Mohammad taught?

 

[TashaN]

And you still have not answered the question.
Interesting.

Though I gotta give you a "D" at your attempt to strawman.

So you are saying that it is not your opinion that those who treat Mohammad as if he were a God are ignorant even though it is what Mohammad taught?

Prophet Mohammed taught that we should see him as if he were Godlike? :sarcastic

Is that what you mean Dr. Mestemia. Please give me a "C" at least. I really need to pass.

 

[McBell]

Prophet Mohammed taught that we should see him as if he were Godlike? :sarcastic

Is that what you mean Dr. Mestemia. Please give me a "C" at least. I really need to pass.

No need to be defensive and evasive.
Since you refuse to actually discuss it, I shan't bother your worldview any more.

 

[ayani]

If Jesus didnt plan to kill his enemies WHY GATHER THE SWORDS TO PUT UP A SHOW,

If Jesus is talking in parables (Metaphornically) couldnt this Death be separation as well, as Adam was dead couldnt Jesus be dead in a spritual sense that he was separeted from God and not literally dead

Jesus Scared of what, can you imagine a God who is Scared, According to this beleive
I would be a better person than this God at least I am not scared of doing something which is right even if i have to die for it

Thousands of people were not enough to win over Romans and Jews

Exactly when his diciples couldnt understand him completely, how can they inform you or account for Jesus ministry. so all these mistakes and contradictions in the bible are from Jesus disciples then

Jesus taught that keep swords, sell your garments to buy swords but when it is the time to fight, put down your swords those who live by the sword die by the sword.

Nawab ~

yes, there are many who believe the death and resurrection of Jesus are symbols or allegories. yet, if one believes the Gospel accounts, Jesus did physically die (he was executed on a cross), and rose from the dead.

i have never bought the Muslim belief that He was "substituted". the Quran doesn't specifically say that- it says He was not crucified, which i chose to read as "they killed Him, but not ultimately". i did and do believe that He died, and was raised to life again.

yes, it's a huge, huge thing to believe. and it's so remarkable and startling, that many have immediately argued that there's no way the story of the resurrection is to be taken literally- it *has* to be an allegory. but the Gospels say that Jesus was tried, crucified, died, and was buried in a tomb. every single historical source, Biblical or otherwise, discussing Jesus' crucifixion, says that yes, it most certainly was Jesus Himself who was crucified- not anyone else. according to the Gospels, His mother and a beloved disciple were standing at His feet as He was crucified- and He spoke to them as one knowing her as His mother, and knowing the disciple, too. the two at the foot of the cross also would have been close to Him, seen His face, heard His voice, and known, having watched Him carry His cross to the spot, that it was Him.

according to Jewish custom, He was wrapped in cloths, and embalmed with over 100 pounds of spices. if Jesus were alive in the tomb, He'd be very, very weak to say the least. He would not have been able to unwrap Himself, remove all those spices, roll the stone away, and get past the Roman guards posted at His tomb.

on the third day, some women who had followed Him came to lay spices at His grave, and they found the tomb empty. later, Jesus appeared to His followers, alive, not dead. so for Christians, Jesus is alive- the merciful, poor Lord who was sent into the world by God to show all people the way to HIm, who poured out His life for God, and for the suffering, is alive, not dead, and He calls us to be His disciples. and because He is alive, with God and of God, He has a unique, wonderful, very real power over death and sin that no one else has- especially in light of the fact that He was a very real person.

so far as Jesus wanting to fight His captors, or ordering His disciples to fight, let me quote for you something from John's Gospel. this is the part where Jesus is brought before Pilate, a Roman leader, and at one point is questioned as to what kind of king He is. here is what He says :

"...My kingdom is not of this world. if My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews [the Jewish leaders who ordered Him killed]; but now, My kingdom is not from here." John 18:36

Jesus was a human being, and liable to get scared. He cried, prayed, was troubled, and got hungry and thirsty. that actually is something i find remarkable. we also get hungry, thirsty, sad, and scared. in His humanity, Jesus completely, with obedience, love, faith, and also humility served God His Father in all things. so we can also do the same- serve God with our humanity, with our weaknesses, if we ask Him to use us, convict us, and guide us in serving Him.

Jesus was also one with God- He knew God, God knew Him, and He was sent by God to reconcile all peoples to Him. through the signs, miracles, and commandments, that everyone might be drawn to God through Him.

in Islam, honestly, if you fall away from the practices, the rituals, the habits, the motions of Islam, you fall away from the faith, and can no longer be called a practicing Muslim. one's faith is measured in many ways by what one does ritually- wearing a headscarf, praying salah correctly and on time, in my experience saying "alhamdulillah" and "insha'allah" often to show a consciousness of Allah, many things. but to fall away from the practices, habits, and rituals of Islam is to pretty much slide into the realm of non-practicing Muslim.

in Jesus' Way and in Christianity, it's not about painstakingly maintaining one's side of the faith, in hopes of perhaps pleasing or glimpsing something of God, but about, as Jesus did, prayerfully, personally, and humbly giving one's life to God and to one's brothers and sisters- asking God's Spirit to come into our lives, change us, convict us, guide us, and redirect our hearts everyday on the path of Jesus. Jesus' path, specifically, because our own wills, desires, preferences, and shortcomings so often fall short of any unity with God's will. Jesus was God's living and holy sacrifice- Jesus gave His life entirely for God and for us (a Christian believes this, at least), to the point of giving up His life. but in giving His life, He regained life, and a victory more lasting and wonderful than any earthly victory, not only for Himself, but for us. for a Christian, Jesus is alive.

in Jesus' path, it's not about ritual actions or habits, but about a relationship with God, who has shown us the way, the truth, and the life in His Son. whether one washes one's hands before prayer or eating is not as important as having a heart that is in love with God, and open to doing His will. i believe Jesus has shown us the way, in Himself. that He is alive, holy, unique, truly of God, and truly glorified.

i do not doubt for an instant that faithful Muslims sincerely love Allah, more than anything. and that they love and respect and honor Muhammad. as a Quran-alone Muslim, i found traditional adoration of Muhammad to be kind of disturbing, and bordering on setting up a partner with Allah, something Islam forbids. think of the shahada- Allah and Muhammad are literally partnered in the declaration of faith, and many places in the Quran it asks Muslims to love Allah and to love the messenger if they love Allah. most all Muslims would claim that without the hadith narratives, the Quran, the supposedly eternal and perfect and complete word of Allah, can not be understood. the hadiths are records of Muhammad's life- in essence, Allah's word can not be understood without the context of Muhammad. i found many of Muhammad's habits, biography, and actions to be disturbing, and in light of knowing something about Jesus' example, teachings, and biography from having been raised Christian, questioned if a man sent by the same God who sent Jesus would live the way Muhammad did, or permit what the Quran permits / commands.

Jesus' way is a way of holiness, peace, sacrifice, and communion with God every step of the way. i did notice that when it came to personal prayer, Christians are true artists. a Muslim may say "insha'allah everything will be ok". i was hearing my Christian friends say things like "God loves us and knows that we want to serve Him- He will guide us and help us to do His will". just looking at those quotes, which quote sounds like a person who truly believes that they know and walk with God, and have a relationship with Him?

i believe, as Islam teaches, that God is the longing of every human heart. that we are created to know and serve God. in Jesus, our lives become our living prayers, sacrifices, and instruments of God, just as Christ allowed His life and death to be used for God's glory, mercy, and plan of salvation. God knows us and uses our humanity to bring us closer to Him. Jesus truly, truly came in peace. not just sometimes, but at all times, even when faced with arrest, trial, torture, and death. and i believe that Jesus is alive- that He still calls people vividly and miraculously to discipleship ,as He has called me. i believe His name is unique, His person is unique, and His path is the path of God.

 

[ayani]

Dirty Penguin ~

so far as Muslim following Jesus / Yasoa - they do not.

they believe that Jesus was a valid messenger, to be respected and honored. but they do not walk in His way. yes, the admire and honor Him in an abstract way, but ultimately, Muslims follow Muhammad, and the words of the Quran.

believing in someone in a general way, and specifically following them are two different things.

regarding (Saint) Paul ~ His take on Christ tends to be very philosophic, and heavenly, not so much grounded on the earth. yet when he converted, the disciples recognized the Spirit with Him, and welcomed Him. He went and taught and preached and worked with the same men who had walked with Jesus. he was a unique man, with often difficult ideas. in the Gospels, we see even the disciples honoring and worshiping Jesus. and think on this - if Jesus Himself did not have that holy power, and if Jesus is not someone to pray to or ask things from, the people seeking after Jesus could have first asked God to help them, and then Jesus would have come over, like a wind-up toy that needs to be wound before it can move. but they asked the Man in front of them, and He healed them. yes, He was sent from God and did all He did by God's will. but He also knew God's will and had God's spirit, power, grace, and might.

 

[ayani]

maro ~

i don't doubt that there have been examples throughout history of Muslim jihad being used to eliminate corruption and suffering. Quranically, that is the point of jihad, to protect the weak and secure justice, not to kill indiscriminately. a number of Muslim empires have fostered great tolerance and peace, freedom of worship, etc. at times when lands claiming to represent Christ practiced a good deal of intolerance and persecution.

yet ultimately, the message of Islam marries religious triumph with political triumph, and for those who resist within lands claimed for Islam, this has proven over and over to be dangerous- with regards to cultural expression, religious freedom, political freedom, etc. look at the fate of Christians in Saudi Arabia, of converts to other faiths from Islam in many many Muslim lands, of Baha'is and Zoroastrians in Persia, of Yezidi, Christians, and fellow Muslims in Iraq today...

the quote you cited and used as an example of an attitude acceptable within Islam says this :

"whoever accepts [Islam] is acceptable to us, and we leave them alone. those who reject [Islam] we will fight until we get what God has promised."

i find that a terrifying, un-Godly, and lamentable attitude towards freedom of conscious. and i am alarmed to find that you espouse such an attitude as acceptably Islamic, let alone reasonable.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

It scares me ... really scares me to step into this mess that has been created in this thread.

I stepped into it once, tried to get some people's attention on some threads I created and left. What Jesus versus Isa has to do with Political triumph that Maro and Ayani debate ... I do not know. Why not start a new post on Religion and Politics or Islam and Politics? Why discuss it here?

Now ... on to Isa versus Jesus: ...

 

[tariqkhwaja]

In life we make two types of mistakes. If one analyses all sins one finds they can be divided into two types.

1. Excessive love.
2. Hatred.

True love and true respect for anyone can only be shown to a person if that love is not excessive. Because once it becomes excessive it is bad for the lover and/or the loved one.

For example, it would be termed excessive love if a mother let her child have whatever he/she wanted. But so many children have been spoilt by this way of upbringing. It is similar to a mother letting her child touch fire. No mother would allow that. But often mothers, in their excessive love, make decisions that are like fire for the child in the long term.

Muslims believe Christians are prey to this same mistake. That is the thesis statement we present. In the original question, who "actually loves" Jesus Christ, this is meant.

So if everyone agrees with this may we move on to arguing for/against this thesis?

 

[gnostic]

Muslims believe Christians are prey to this same mistake. That is the thesis statement we present. In the original question, who "actually loves" Jesus Christ, this is meant.

Agreed. As a non-Christian I see that.

As a non-Muslim, I also see Muslims are making the same mistakes as you see the Christians are doing. Muslims love for Muhammad are just as excessive, and I have already pointed out this, to the Muslims here.

Your example of excessive love of mother for a child, CAN and DO apply very much to the Muslims with Muhammad. Muslims excessive love for their prophet are just as destructive as the mother to her child in your example.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Your example of excessive love of mother for a child, CAN and DO apply very much to the Muslims with Muhammad. Muslims excessive love for their prophet are just as destructive as the mother to her child in your example.

And that is a topic for another thread. Not this one. Here we argue the thesis about Jesus. We argue the thesis about Mohammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) somewhere else. Maybe you want to start a new thread?

 

[Peace]

so far as Muslim following Jesus / Yasoa - they do not.

You are wrong dear, for you are the one who don't follow his path. If he were here he would have told you himself, but you will know that fact later though.

regarding (Saint) Paul ~ His take on Christ tends to be very philosophic, and heavenly, not so much grounded on the earth.

Execuse me what did you say? Heavenly ???! :sarcastic Saul or Paul's take on Christ tends to rely on the Greec-Roman philosphy... he was so affected by it to the degree that he committed the biggest and major sin when he misguided chistians and let them astray by making them believe that Jesus Christ is god/son of god "may God forbid".

 

[gnostic]

And that is a topic for another thread. Not this one. Here we argue the thesis about Jesus. We argue the thesis about Mohammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) somewhere else. Maybe you want to start a new thread?

That's fine by me. Do you want to create the thread, and me joining it? Or the other way around?

 

[YmirGF]

You are wrong dear, for you are the one who don't follow his path. If he were here he would have told you himself, but you will know that fact later though.

This is a fairly presumptuous statement, Peace. Are you now claiming to know the mind of the Christ? :areyoucra

Execuse me what did you say? Heavenly ???! :sarcastic Saul or Paul's take on Christ tends to rely on the Greec-Roman philosphy... he was so affected by it to the degree that he committed the biggest and major sin when he misguided chistians and let them astray by making them believe that Jesus Christ is god/son of god "may God forbid".

This is the crux of the whole thing, as I pointed out many posts back. Folks think they have two choices. They don't need to make it so complicated. They have one choice. That choice is to accept "Prophet" Muhammed [pbuh] or to utterly reject his teachings. If one believes that Jesus was an incarnation of "god" then, by default, one must reject the words of "Prophet" Muhammed [pbuh]. If one does not believe that Jesus was "god" then one, by default, must pay attention to what "Prophet" Muhammed [pbuh] claimed.

The bottom line, resides within what one believes the nature of Jesus to be and from there one simply accepts "Prophet" Muhammed [pbuh] or rejects his teaching outright. There really is no half-way. It is because of this that the OP cannot be answered in any meaningful way, due to the flawed thinking that precipitated the original question.

 

[nawab]

yes so thats why we claim that if Jesus is a God he must have said it which he didnt so Prophet Muhammad was right and the Of course all muslims we know the mind of christ and all the prophets since all of thier message was one La illah ha ilalahu there is no God but Allah. All of them taught the same message. so, peace is right we know the mind of Christ.

However, i still dont see how christains respect, obey, love Jesus more. when we are the ones really obeying, loving and respecting Jesus.

The christains are saying that Jesus is the literal son, begotton not made, Adam was created Jesus is not like that Jesus was sired by God almighty. God Forbid God had sex with Mary to beget Jesus, this is respect. this is insulting God, Mary and Jesus you see with one shot insulting three. Later the portray him as being a week, oppressed naked man who is suffereing imagine a messenger of God or even God is naked and humiliated in front of the sinners. I would say the Jews and the Romans were mightier than the God of Christianity since they crucified him. The chrsitians not only insult Jesus, but Lot, Solomon and other biblical figures who are accused of Adultry, incest and rape and prostitution.