ISIL, Taliban = True Islam??

[muhammad_isa]

You have completely misunderstood that saying.
Allah is not leading the person to water, he is sending them away from the water, even though he knows it will mean they will die of thirst.

I didn't say that G-d was.

You claim that the mechanism that is involved in misguidance is absolute, while in fact it is not. It is dependent on the person's attitude and events that unfold in their lives.

I have already demonstrated this.
Staunch disbelievers can become believers.
It shows that your interpretation is wrong.

All you are doing is taking phrases / verses in English, and insisting on a literal interpretation. You are only fooling yourself here.

To me, "Whoever Allah misguides, none can guide them" means that a person who doesn't change what is in their heart, will not believe. Simple as that.

 

[Link]

What it means by God leads astray, is that he takes account of our actions. If we lead astray others, he won't guide us. If we are oppressive, he won't guide us.

As he controls the hearts, he accounts them to their deeds. When their hearts go hard, it's due to evil deeds. Hard hearts can't see Quran and Sunnah properly, they are lead astray by how God controls and accounts for souls.

But at the same time, he calls us to ask forgiveness for him, to pray to him for guidance, to soften our hearts, to reflect over Quran beyond what Iblis' magic locks us upon.

God guides those who strive for him. That's a guarantee. The souls who make a god per their desires, not much can be done, and leaves them blindly wandering.

At the end, since God creates and allows dark magic vs the light power of the chosen Guides, he says indeed, people of a, b, c actions won't be guided but lead astray by the way he designed the world.

And people who are of x y z actions will be guided by God.

God won't care for us were it not for our prayers to him. This is why it's important to pray to him often and learn the proper means of how to address God. No interceder can save us or help us except with his permission. In God's hand is all good.

If we truly desire God and don't deny his signs, we will be guided to him. He only veils himself from those who actions are for other then Him.

He has guaranteed paradise for who fears the station of God. As long as we hold on to belief in accountability and justice, and don't deny our ugly deeds in his eyes and their ugly nature, door of repentance is open and repentance is accepted.

 

[KWED]

Why did they happen?
..just forget about "what Allah says" for a moment .. it is irrelevant as regards to this issue.
Do you think that our decisions had any part to play in fixing the past or not?

What? How can we ignore Allah's effect on this when that is precisely what is being examined?
The issue here is whether Allah "misguiding people so they cannot believe" removes their free will, so it is meaningless to remove Allah from the equation.

This entire discussion is about what happens in a world where Islam is real, so the principle that Allah deliberately sends people astray, creates people for hell (basically the principle of Qadr) must apply.

What you are saying is like saying to the judge "OK, if we forget the law, why was killing my wife illegal?"

 

[KWED]

I didn't say that G-d was.

Then why use that expression if you know it doesn't apply?

You claim that the mechanism that is involved in misguidance is absolute, while in fact it is not. It is dependent on the person's attitude and events that unfold in their lives.

No. You are just making stuff up now.
Under the conditions where "Allah misguides someone so that none can guide them", it is absolute. None can guide them. They are unable to be guided. And why? Because god led them astray. It doesn't say "Whoever doesn't understand the message might be able to understand if they try harder". It says "Whoever Allah leads astray, none can guide".
Then there is "And surely we have created many of mankind for hell". How is that dependent of a person's attitude. It is an absolute statement of purpose. God has done something definite, and that cannot be undone.
You need to address the actual issue, not one that you made up that you are more comfortable with.

Staunch disbelievers can become believers.

Not if Allah has led them astray so none can guide them. And certainly not if Allah has created them for hell. Otherwise, Allah would be wrong.

It shows that your interpretation is wrong.

No. It shows that not everyone is misguided so they cannot believe, or cerated for hell. And as I never claimed it applied to everyone, you are attacking a straw man.
There are billions more disbelievers who never become believers, which clearly shows that something is preventing them from believing. In the Quran, Allah says that somethings that something is him.

All you are doing is taking phrases / verses in English, and insisting on a literal interpretation. You are only fooling yourself here.
To me, "Whoever Allah misguides, none can guide them" means that a person who doesn't change what is in their heart, will not believe. Simple as that.

Wrong. It might work if it was ""Whoever is misguided, none can guide them" but that is not what it says. And there is the verse that says he surely created many of mankind for hell. How can they change their mind? If they did, they would not go to hell and Allah would be wrong. Their fate was sealed by Allah's actions, not their own. So how is being punished for it just?

Also, love how you accuse me of "misinterpreting" when your "interpretation" requires forcing a completely different meaning onto a clear and obvious statement.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..it is meaningless to remove Allah from the equation.

Dodging the real issue I see.
You allege that the future being fixed in itself means that we have no choice. It has nothing to do with whether there is "a god" or not.
Are you saying if G-d does not exist, that we then are free to choose?

 

[muhammad_isa]

And there is the verse that says he surely created many of mankind for hell.

It doesn't necessarily mean any particular person. Nobody knows what their destination might be.
..but YES, there is no doubt that many will end up in hell.

I, personally, see the Qur'an as totally coherent. I take it as a whole, and not cherry-pick, with a questionable agenda.
I will try to avoid being one destined for hell.
You, however, are free to do as you will.

 

[KWED]

Dodging the real issue I see.

You allege that the future being fixed in itself means that we have no choice. It has nothing to do with whether there is "a god" or not.

Seriously, WTF are you on about? The future is being fixed by Allah's intervention.
That is the issue here. And yet you refuse to address it.
Can't say I'm surprised though. It must be quite difficult when you realise there is no reasonable explanation that resolves the paradox. For Allah to be just and fair, we must have free will to find our own way to Islam and be able to move from disbelief to belief. But Allah says that he deliberately prevents this in some cases, so how can he be just and fair?
Simply repeating "But We Have Free Will!" does not resolve this.

Are you saying if G-d does not exist, that we then are free to choose?

If god does not exist, free will is not removed by god's intervention.
If a god exists who fixes the future by intervention, then it removes our free will in that respect.
It's really not rocket science.

 

[KWED]

It doesn't necessarily mean any particular person. Nobody knows what their destination might be.
..but YES, there is no doubt that many will end up in hell.

I never claimed that it says "Mr X, Mrs Y and Ms Z will go to hell". It says "And surely we created many of mankind for hell". They didn't send themselves to hell by their own actions. They were always destined for hell because Allah created them that way. How can that possibly be just or fair?

I, personally, see the Qur'an as totally coherent.

Of course you do. You are a Muslim. I see it as incoherent. And as I have nothing to lose or gain from my evaluation, it is more objective that yours as you believe your eternal soul depends on it.

I take it as a whole, and not cherry-pick,

But you don't. You cherry pick the passages that support your agenda and ignore of dismiss those that don't. I accept that it contains conflicting and contradictory concepts and principles.

with a questionable agenda.

My agenda is to point out the flaws in Islam as I see it. Your agenda is to defend it against criticism. However, your agenda has far more resting on it. For me it is just an academic exercise and a bit of fun. Although it has sometimes led to people changing their beliefs, that is not my primary objective. You, on the other hand, believe that if you accept any of my arguments you could be going to hell. That is not a good place from which to arrive at a reasonable conclusion.

I will try to avoid being one destined for hell.

As if on cue, there it is.

You, however, are free to do as you will.

No I'm not. Allah has clearly led me astray or created me for hell. Otherwise I would be able to see the obvious truth and beauty of Islam. Yes?
Hopefully, he will remove the seal he has placed on my heart at some point so I can be saved, but as he says in the Quran, there is no point in warning me before he does that because I will not be able to hear.

And you still haven't explained why he did this to me. He created me only to worship him, but I can't. It makes no sense. (Don't worry, I know you can't address this, but I'll keep asking it anyway).

 

[muhammad_isa]

If god does not exist, free will is not removed by god's intervention..

G-d is not intervening..

If a god exists who fixes the future by intervention, then it removes our free will in that respect.

That's obvious.
..but G-d does not "fix the future".
It is fixed by our actions, as is the past.

It is more than obvious if the future is fixed by G-d, we are merely puppets and do not have free-will.
That is clearly not the case, and you fail to understand Islam.

..but you are free to wander blindly on claiming that Islam is incoherent.

 

[muhammad_isa]

They were always destined for hell because Allah created them that way

Nonsense. That is the understanding of Calvinist Christians.
Islam does not teach that.
Again, you read some English verses and claim you know all.

No I'm not. Allah has clearly led me astray or created me for hell..
...
And you still haven't explained why he did this to me. He created me only to worship him, but I can't. It makes no sense.

G-d behaves as you think He will behave!

 

[SA Huguenot]

"I have studied science of hadith"

I think you are making a huge mistake Firedragon.
I never said I studied the "Science " of the Hadith!
That is a word you inserted into what I said.
My words was: I studied the hadith!

Now, there is no science for me to study, there is only one thing to do when you study the hadith!
Read what Muhammad said, period.

Now, What I did was to buy books on Islam that is reviewed by Muslims, such as the Concise collection of the Authentic hadith of Al Bukhari, and then read it, find out what the context of those sayings of Muhammad was, and make a conclusion.

Now, I will never listen to any Muslim scholar's exegesis on what this and that Hadith might or Might not mean after pages of excuses and blah blah, but I simply look at the historical naration that was already authenticated, and see what it says.
For instance.
The following Hadith are "Authentic", and the lines of transmission was accepted by Muslim scholars to ensure that these are the words of Muhammad.
This is a small summary from Al Bukhari.
Now you can tell me I am a liar, and I will take a picture of the page on this hadith if you want to. But such a demand will just be evidence that you need only to defend the words of Muhammad at all cost, whilst ignoring Muhammads' true intent.

The Book of Hunting Penalty 891 When you are called for Jihad, you are compelled go immediately without any question!
Book of Jihad 1204 Muhammad said: There is no better deed than Jihad
Book of Jihad 1206 A Jihadi will go to paradise if he dies, or to home with booty if he survives.
Book of Jihad 1207 Paradise has 100 grades and the grade for the for the Jihadist is the highest.
Book of Jihad 1208 Jihad is worth more than everything in and on the earth in the eyes of Allah!
Book of Jihad 1216 Embrace Islam first then fight. (Prerequisite)
Book of Jihad 1218 Fighting in war for Allah makes you superior than anyone else.
Book of Jihad 1219 Gabriel leaded Muhammad into war!
Book of Jihad 1220 If a man dies in battle he goes to paradise, the one who killed him later converts and dies a martyr. He will also go to paradise.
Book of Jihad 1225 Muhammad had Muslims giving pledges to carry on with Jihad for the rest of their lives
Book of Jihad 1261 even if the Jews Hide behind Rocks in Jihad, the stones will shout to the Muslims to come and kill them
Book of Jihad 1270 The Muslim must fight to protect the Imam
Book of Jihad 1279 Muhammad was made victorious with terror
Book of Jihad 1292 Muhammad instructed Muslims to disregard the lives of women and children at night during war
Book of Jihad 1294 Kill someone that abandones Islam
Book of traditions of the prophets 1507 In the last days there will be people who will speak from the Quran, but they will abandon Islam (peace). They must be killed where ever you meet them
Book of Holy Battles 1618 If you die in Jihad, you go to paradise
Book of Holy Battles 1629 Muhammad instructs the Muslims to kill the men and take their offspring as captives
Book of Holy Battles 1634 The captives of Banul'mustaliq was raped, Muhammad instructed the men not to prevent pregnancies
Book of Holy Battles 1679 Buraida hated Ali after Ali raped a captive woman from his booty. Muhammad stated that Ali should receive more than that.
Book of prayer times 329 The third dearest thing for Allah is Jihad
Book of Emancipation 1145 Muhammad attacked the Banul mustaliq people without warning. He killed their men and took the women and children as slaves. He took one women himself.
Book of Jihad 1276 Paradise is under the shade of the sword
Book of conditions 1192 The Quraish Muslims attacked innocent Quraish caravans, killed them and took their property
Book of Holy Battles 1604 The best Muslims are those who partook in the battle of Badr
Book of Holy Battles 1674 Khalid Ibn Al wakid Killed people because they were not true Muslim and instructed to kill the captives. Muhammad did not agree to that
Book of Holy Quran Virtues 1844 Temporary marriage was allowed by Muhammad
Book of blood money 2171 If a Muslim leaves Islam, He must be killed
Book of funeral 678 The followers of Muhammad were fast in chopping people’s heads off.
Book of conditions 1191 Omar judged that the Jews assaulted him one night. He expelled them without trail

I have about 175 such hadith where Muslims learns from Muhammad that if they die in Jihad, they will go to paradise! Jihad is expected from Muslims etc,

 

[SA Huguenot]

It appears to be the case..
..however, don't forget how it all started.
Wasn't it something to do with the British Empire, amongst other things?

..so you see Muslims as aggressors and Protestants as defenders.
It is the classic "who's fault is it?" rather than, as you say, a case of belief in pacifism.

I never said that too.
We all know why the first and second ww started, and it was not due to religious reasons, but political agreements between countries, and agreeion by Socialism.
on the one hand, Communist socialism, on the other nationalist socialism.
Hitler had to continue rampaging Europe to fund his political experiment of nationalist socialism.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Summary? Bukhara's collection IS A SUMMARY. And summaries will never in your life give you the information I am asking about. No way in the world.

Yet, I will await your analysis. Cheers.

Why not?
It is a collection of the hadith?
It has the Arabic on one page, and translated into English on the other!
So tell me why wount a Muslim collection of the Hadith be a validated book?
Perhaps because you want to explain the bad stuff Muhammad did with some long explanation

 

[firedragon]

I think you are making a huge mistake Firedragon.
I never said I studied the "Science " of the Hadith!
That is a word you inserted into what I said.
My words was: I studied the hadith!

How do you study ahadith? Whats your source of knowledge and whats your methodology?

In my vocabulary, study ahadith means study the science. Otherwise its reading only. So if I misunderstood you I apologise.

Now, there is no science for me to study, there is only one thing to do when you study the hadith!
Read what Muhammad said, period.

Without the science, how do you know what Muhammed said? You think ahadith are derived like that? Thats absolutely wrong. You dont read a hadith and derive what Muhammed said. There is a method for that.

Now, I will never listen to any Muslim scholar's exegesis

Well, that's your wish. But I am not talking of exegesis.

The Book of Hunting Penalty 891 When you are called for Jihad, you are compelled go immediately without any question!
Book of Jihad 1204 Muhammad said: There is no better deed than Jihad
Book of Jihad 1206 A Jihadi will go to paradise if he dies, or to home with booty if he survives.
Book of Jihad 1207 Paradise has 100 grades and the grade for the for the Jihadist is the highest.
Book of Jihad 1208 Jihad is worth more than everything in and on the earth in the eyes of Allah!
Book of Jihad 1216 Embrace Islam first then fight. (Prerequisite)
Book of Jihad 1218 Fighting in war for Allah makes you superior than anyone else.
Book of Jihad 1219 Gabriel leaded Muhammad into war!
Book of Jihad 1220 If a man dies in battle he goes to paradise, the one who killed him later converts and dies a martyr. He will also go to paradise.
Book of Jihad 1225 Muhammad had Muslims giving pledges to carry on with Jihad for the rest of their lives
Book of Jihad 1261 even if the Jews Hide behind Rocks in Jihad, the stones will shout to the Muslims to come and kill them
Book of Jihad 1270 The Muslim must fight to protect the Imam
Book of Jihad 1279 Muhammad was made victorious with terror
Book of Jihad 1292 Muhammad instructed Muslims to disregard the lives of women and children at night during war
Book of Jihad 1294 Kill someone that abandones Islam
Book of traditions of the prophets 1507 In the last days there will be people who will speak from the Quran, but they will abandon Islam (peace). They must be killed where ever you meet them
Book of Holy Battles 1618 If you die in Jihad, you go to paradise
Book of Holy Battles 1629 Muhammad instructs the Muslims to kill the men and take their offspring as captives
Book of Holy Battles 1634 The captives of Banul'mustaliq was raped, Muhammad instructed the men not to prevent pregnancies
Book of Holy Battles 1679 Buraida hated Ali after Ali raped a captive woman from his booty. Muhammad stated that Ali should receive more than that.
Book of prayer times 329 The third dearest thing for Allah is Jihad
Book of Emancipation 1145 Muhammad attacked the Banul mustaliq people without warning. He killed their men and took the women and children as slaves. He took one women himself.
Book of Jihad 1276 Paradise is under the shade of the sword
Book of conditions 1192 The Quraish Muslims attacked innocent Quraish caravans, killed them and took their property
Book of Holy Battles 1604 The best Muslims are those who partook in the battle of Badr
Book of Holy Battles 1674 Khalid Ibn Al wakid Killed people because they were not true Muslim and instructed to kill the captives. Muhammad did not agree to that
Book of Holy Quran Virtues 1844 Temporary marriage was allowed by Muhammad
Book of blood money 2171 If a Muslim leaves Islam, He must be killed
Book of funeral 678 The followers of Muhammad were fast in chopping people’s heads off.
Book of conditions 1191 Omar judged that the Jews assaulted him one night. He expelled them without trail

I have about 175 such hadith where Muslims learns from Muhammad that if they die in Jihad, they will go to paradise! Jihad is expected from Muslims etc,

Thanks for the cut and paste. Great.

 

[firedragon]

Why not?
It is a collection of the hadith?
It has the Arabic on one page, and translated into English on the other!
So tell me why wount a Muslim collection of the Hadith be a validated book?
Perhaps because you want to explain the bad stuff Muhammad did with some long explanation

Since you have absolutely no knowledge, nor are you interested, one is not able to explain anything to you mate.

Also, you just did a no true scotsman fallacy.

I will show you how that can get back at you. Since you intend to insult Islam, malign the prophet, and demonise people, this is all you will do. Cut and paste, cherry pick, and spread absolutely bogus information.

Try to do some actual studies.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Lol. Do you really believe Furoojuhunna means "private parts"? This is hilarious. You believe this is the correct translation?

You mean "farjaha"
Well, today even a Christian can go to Google search and enter the word, Al Farj in google translate, and viola!
Vagina.

Perhaps you think all Arab speaking people are Muslim, and forget that there are millions of Arabs who left Islam, and are still doing so.
Well, that is not true, all the Arab speaking people I met, reads 66:12 and 21:91 as Farajha ar = Vagina, or private parts.
You yourself just need to check You Tube, and see how the Arab translators and Muslim scholars are trying to tell the world that the meaning is, Chasticy.

Well, it seems as if you are one.
Yherefore I suggest to learn a bit more on these 2 verses, then come back to discuss Jihad on this forum.

 

[SA Huguenot]

How do you study ahadith? Whats your source of knowledge and whats your methodology?

In my vocabulary, study ahadith means study the science. Otherwise its reading only. So if I misunderstood you I apologise.

You simply buy the collection of authenticated Hadith from Arab scholars, then read it!
Just as I bought the different quran's in my collection, and I READ it!

Furthermore, I dont care for your vocabulary, you do not even know the Arabic meaning of Farjaha.
I will listen to my ex muslim brothers who;s 1st language is Arab.
They will tell the truth, because they all gave up a long time ago to defend the bad words in the Quran with the excuse that it can be translated as this or that.

 

[SA Huguenot]

What methodology do I usde to determine the science of an hadith?
Easy, I buy a concise collection of the "Correct traditions" by Muslim scholars, then I read it.
Nice thing, they already did the "Science" in determining the authenticated hadiths.

 

[firedragon]

You mean "farjaha"

Lol. Mate. Farj means chastity. What do you mean "you mean Farjaha"? Can you tell me what Thafareejun mean? Same word.

Dont make statements on things you dont understand mate.

Well, today even a Christian can go to Google search and enter the word, Al Farj in google translate, and viola!
Vagina.

WEll, the literature you are addressing is not "today". Its Fusha Atthurath. Dont make such absurd statements.

Tell me. What is the actual meaning of "Al Farj" since you have become an expert googling.

Perhaps you think all Arab speaking people are Muslim

Nah. Maybe you do things like that and think others are just like you.

Well, it seems as if you are one.
Yherefore I suggest to learn a bit more on these 2 verses, then come back to discuss Jihad on this forum.

Lol. From Mary to Jihad. DO you have any sense of direction at all?

You simply buy the collection of authenticated Hadith from Arab scholars, then read it!

Thats good for a child. I mean with no sense of anything whatsoever. Just a reader. Thats not studying.

Furthermore, I dont care for your vocabulary, you do not even know the Arabic meaning of Farjaha.
I will listen to my ex muslim brothers who;s 1st language is Arab.
They will tell the truth, because they all gave up a long time ago to defend the bad words in the Quran with the excuse that it can be translated as this or that.

So ask your "ex Muslim" what the fundamental meaning is, and if its in Fusha Atthurath, and come back here with a bit of humility. Try.

 

[KWED]

Nonsense. That is the understanding of Calvinist Christians.
Islam does not teach that.

Erm, have you read the Quran?...
"And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. Those are like livestock" (7:179)
Note that Allah does not say that many of mankind are destined for hell, he specifically says he has created them for hell.

Again, you read some English verses and claim you know all.

Oh, so the Quran in English is different from the Quran in other languages? I thought Allah was supposed to preserve it from corruption. Maybe he struggles with English.