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ISIL, Taliban = True Islam??

ISIL, Taliban. Do they represent the correct interpretation of Islam in your opinion?

  • Yes.

  • No.


Results are only viewable after voting.

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
G-d is not intervening..
WTF?
You just said (on the other thread) that the only reason that you are a Muslim is because god intervened and guided you.

That's obvious.
..but G-d does not "fix the future".
It is fixed by our actions, as is the past.

It is more than obvious if the future is fixed by G-d, we are merely puppets and do not have free-will.
That is clearly not the case, and you fail to understand Islam.

..but you are free to wander blindly on claiming that Islam is incoherent. :rolleyes:
I think you may need to read up on the principle of Qadr.
As Umar ibn al-Khattab said "The outcome of all events is determined by Allah's decree. If something is meant to go elsewhere it will never come your way, but if it is yours by destiny you cannot flee from it"
So, how is that not a future fixed by Allah?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Oh, so the Quran in English is different from the Quran in other languages? I thought Allah was supposed to preserve it from corruption. Maybe he struggles with English.
o_O

The original Qur'an, I believe, is preserved for ~1500 years.
As for interpretations and translations, they are too numerous to mention.

Even an Arab reading the Qur'an can misunderstand it, as words are only words.
..and what's more, it is like trying to understand Shakespeare in as much as it is in classical Arabic.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
As Umar ibn al-Khattab said "The outcome of all events is determined by Allah's decree. If something is meant to go elsewhere it will never come your way, but if it is yours by destiny you cannot flee from it"
So, how is that not a future fixed by Allah?
If he did actually literally mean that, then he is wrong.

..but I doubt that he was wrong. It is you that are "wrong".
You simply cleverly try to deceive, by finding loopholes in translations and concept.

Let's see.
"The outcome of all events is determined by Allah's decree."

What does that mean?
This English translation of a possible idiom, seems to imply that G-d caused our destiny.

It simply can't be. It is not coherent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Similarly, we have in the Qur'an "the sun set in a muddy spring"
I guess the sun must have fallen in to the water, and then come out again. :rolleyes:
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Tell me. What is the actual meaning of "Al Farj" since you have become an expert googling.
lets see:
Al Farj=Vagina.
Lol. Mate. Farj means chastity. What do you mean "you mean Farjaha"? Can you tell me what Thafareejun mean? Same word. ;)

Dont make statements on things you dont understand mate.



WEll, the literature you are addressing is not "today". Its Fusha Atthurath. Dont make such absurd statements.

Tell me. What is the actual meaning of "Al Farj" since you have become an expert googling.




Nah. Maybe you do things like that and think others are just like you.



Lol. From Mary to Jihad. DO you have any sense of direction at all?



Thats good for a child. I mean with no sense of anything whatsoever. Just a reader. Thats not studying.



So ask your "ex Muslim" what the fundamental meaning is, and if its in Fusha Atthurath, and come back here with a bit of humility. Try.
Look Firedragon.
It is always bad to see that what you were taught your whole life was not so true and wonderfull as your scholars wanted you to believe.
I can understand that a Muslim who's family for ages, and the person I speak too, will have this instinctive reaction to defend what he believes, with all his might once the evidence shows to the contrary.
If I was a muslim, and was forced to memorise the Quran from age 6 untill 13, and were taught to pray 5 times a day, and learned from my religious leaders that only a Muslim is allowed to interperate the Quran and Hadith, I will also perhaps feel like fighting to defend Islam.
Especially if I realise everything I did and achieved was not worth its while when some Christian starts to ask "uncomfortable" questions.
Well, let me put is in short.
The Muslimscholars s over the ages managed to hide the true translation of the Quran from everyone with wordplay, and hide behind such excuses as, "only an Arab speaking Muslim is allowed to translate the quran". or other falacies.
You have attempted to say I am a liar in telling you that all the ex Muslims I spoke with, said that the Arabic translation of Farahja is the specific name of the female sexual organ, and you keep on telling me I dont know Arabic and I google to get answers.

Well, there is 2 ways to show you that you are wrong,
1. I can get you to speak to some Ex Muslims who will prove to you that you are attempting to whitewash the Quran, or you were mislead,
2. I can show you on your own Muslim websites on the different way Arabic speakers translated the word.
lets see what Arab Muslims says, not your Muslim scholars who would like to hide the truth.
Ayah at-Tahrim (Banning, Prohibition) 66:12

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her private parts, so We breathed into it of Our Spirit and she established as true the Words of her Lord and His Books and she had been among the ones who are morally obligated.

Dr. Kamal Omar
And Maryam, the daughter of Imran who guarded her private sexual part, so We introduced therein out of Our Spirit. And she testified to the truth of the statements of her Nourisher-Sustainer and His Writings. And she happened to be out of those who are content

M. Farook Malik
Another example is in the life of Mary, the daughter of `ImrAn, who guarded her chastity, and into whose womb We breathed of Our spirit, who testified to the words of her Lord, and His scriptures, and was one of the obedient

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
ir

And Maryam (Mary) daughter of Imran, who kept safe her private parts, (i.e., safeguarded) so We breathed in it of Our Spirit, and she sincerely (believed) in the Words of her Lord, and His Books; and she was one of the devout

Muhammad Sarwar
ir

He has also told, as a parable, the story of Mary, daughter of Imran who preserved her virginity and (into whose womb) We breathed Our spirit. She made the words of her Lord and the predictions in His Books come true. She was an obedient woman

Ali Quli Qara'i
ir
And Mary, daughter of Imran, who guarded the chastity of her womb, so We breathed into it of Our spirit. She confirmed the words of her Lord and His Books, and she was one of the obedient

Ali Bakhtiari Nejad And Mary, daughter of Imran who guarded her private part, then We blew from Our breath/spirit into it and she confirmed her Master's words and His books, and she was of the obedient ones

[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)
ir

And Mary, daughter of Imran, who maintained the chastity of her private part, so We blew into it from Our Spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Books; and she was of those who were dutiful.

Muhammad Ahmed & Samira And Mary Amran's daughter who remained chaste (protected) her genital parts between her legs, so We blew in it from Our Soul/Spirit , and she confirmed/was truthful with her Lord's words/expressions, and His Books , and she was from the worshipping humbl

George Sale
ir
And Mary the daughter of Imran; who preserved her chastity, and into whose womb we breathed of our spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and his scriptures, and was a devout and obedient person

John Medows Rodwell
ir
And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who kept her maidenhood, and into whose womb we breathed of our spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was one of the devout

N J Dawood (2014) And in Mary, ‘Imran‘s daughter, who preserved her chastity and into whose womb We breathed Our spirit; who put her trust in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was truly devout
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
o_O

The original Qur'an, I believe, is preserved for ~1500 years.
As for interpretations and translations, they are too numerous to mention.

Even an Arab reading the Qur'an can misunderstand it, as words are only words.
..and what's more, it is like trying to understand Shakespeare in as much as it is in classical Arabic.
On the "Quran neve changed, well that is not true at all.
The Quran Muslims have today is the Hafs 1928, yet there are numerous manuscripts dating from 150 years after muhammad that have many differences from the 1928.
The Muslim quran that never changed, is only 93 years old.
It does not correspond to the Samarkant Tushkent, Topkapi Istanbul, Blue Quran Egypt, Birmingham Manuscript, or the Sa ana.
The oldest is perhaps the Sa'ana, and contains many variants from the standard text.
Sanaa manuscript - Wikipedia
Now I know that Jay Smith would like to elaborate much more than what the bias researchers say about changes, but even on Wikipaedia they removed Gerhard Piun's references to the differences between the Sa'Naa Quran (oldest manuscript) and the 1928 Egyptian.
Sanaa manuscript - Wikipedia
Hoever, the researchers HAVE TO AGREE that the oldest manuscript of the Quran has hundreds of differences, spelling errors, and other words than the Mushaf of the Quran of today.

Therefore, to say the quran never changed over 1500 years, is just not true.
The editor on Wiki did provide ample references, and you can see it for yourself.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
lets see:
Al Farj=Vagina.

Absolutely false. ;)

What is the fundamental meaning of the word Farj? Ask your expert ex muslims mate.

Look Firedragon.
It is always bad to see that what you were taught your whole life was not so true and wonderfull

You are impose your own methodology and life experience to others. I feel sorry for you that your whole life you have been taught somethings that you use to spread false about others and books you dont understand from Adam and its an utter failure. Its a pity.

Now I know that Jay Smith would like to elaborate much more than what the bias researchers say about change

Jay smith maybe your God. But he is as ignorant as you. He doesn't know anything. He is good for ignorant people. Sounds nice for falsehood spreaders.
lets see:
Al Farj=Vagina.

Look Firedragon.
It is always bad to see that what you were taught your whole life was not so true and wonderfull as your scholars wanted you to believe.
I can understand that a Muslim who's family for ages, and the person I speak too, will have this instinctive reaction to defend what he believes, with all his might once the evidence shows to the contrary.
If I was a muslim, and was forced to memorise the Quran from age 6 untill 13, and were taught to pray 5 times a day, and learned from my religious leaders that only a Muslim is allowed to interperate the Quran and Hadith, I will also perhaps feel like fighting to defend Islam.
Especially if I realise everything I did and achieved was not worth its while when some Christian starts to ask "uncomfortable" questions.
Well, let me put is in short.
The Muslimscholars s over the ages managed to hide the true translation of the Quran from everyone with wordplay, and hide behind such excuses as, "only an Arab speaking Muslim is allowed to translate the quran". or other falacies.
You have attempted to say I am a liar in telling you that all the ex Muslims I spoke with, said that the Arabic translation of Farahja is the specific name of the female sexual organ, and you keep on telling me I dont know Arabic and I google to get answers.

Well, there is 2 ways to show you that you are wrong,
1. I can get you to speak to some Ex Muslims who will prove to you that you are attempting to whitewash the Quran, or you were mislead,
2. I can show you on your own Muslim websites on the different way Arabic speakers translated the word.
lets see what Arab Muslims says, not your Muslim scholars who would like to hide the truth.
Ayah at-Tahrim (Banning, Prohibition) 66:12

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her private parts, so We breathed into it of Our Spirit and she established as true the Words of her Lord and His Books and she had been among the ones who are morally obligated.

Dr. Kamal Omar
And Maryam, the daughter of Imran who guarded her private sexual part, so We introduced therein out of Our Spirit. And she testified to the truth of the statements of her Nourisher-Sustainer and His Writings. And she happened to be out of those who are content

M. Farook Malik
Another example is in the life of Mary, the daughter of `ImrAn, who guarded her chastity, and into whose womb We breathed of Our spirit, who testified to the words of her Lord, and His scriptures, and was one of the obedient

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
ir

And Maryam (Mary) daughter of Imran, who kept safe her private parts, (i.e., safeguarded) so We breathed in it of Our Spirit, and she sincerely (believed) in the Words of her Lord, and His Books; and she was one of the devout

Muhammad Sarwar
ir

He has also told, as a parable, the story of Mary, daughter of Imran who preserved her virginity and (into whose womb) We breathed Our spirit. She made the words of her Lord and the predictions in His Books come true. She was an obedient woman

Ali Quli Qara'i
ir
And Mary, daughter of Imran, who guarded the chastity of her womb, so We breathed into it of Our spirit. She confirmed the words of her Lord and His Books, and she was one of the obedient

Ali Bakhtiari Nejad And Mary, daughter of Imran who guarded her private part, then We blew from Our breath/spirit into it and she confirmed her Master's words and His books, and she was of the obedient ones

[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)
ir

And Mary, daughter of Imran, who maintained the chastity of her private part, so We blew into it from Our Spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Books; and she was of those who were dutiful.

Muhammad Ahmed & Samira And Mary Amran's daughter who remained chaste (protected) her genital parts between her legs, so We blew in it from Our Soul/Spirit , and she confirmed/was truthful with her Lord's words/expressions, and His Books , and she was from the worshipping humbl

George Sale
ir
And Mary the daughter of Imran; who preserved her chastity, and into whose womb we breathed of our spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and his scriptures, and was a devout and obedient person

John Medows Rodwell
ir
And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who kept her maidenhood, and into whose womb we breathed of our spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was one of the devout

N J Dawood (2014) And in Mary, ‘Imran‘s daughter, who preserved her chastity and into whose womb We breathed Our spirit; who put her trust in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was truly devout

So your Google scholarship and your ex Muslim experts tell you Its definitely "Vagina" right?

Do me have vaginas? In which world is that?

Tell the believing men to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what they do. - 24:30. Sahih International

If you are seeking knowledge, you would honestly do that. But you are here, and probably are all over the place spreading hatred. Thats your aim, so you will never in your life do honest analysis.

Pretty lame. Men have vaginas in your world mate.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Therefore, to say the quran never changed over 1500 years, is just not true.

Haha. By changes you mean one manuscript to another?

Tell me.

1. How many manuscripts have you studied?
2. What are the so called "changes"?
3. What kind of change is it? Textual or rendition?
4. What time period to what time period?

Lets see if you have any substance at all.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Absolutely false. ;)

What is the fundamental meaning of the word Farj? Ask your expert ex muslims mate.



You are impose your own methodology and life experience to others. I feel sorry for you that your whole life you have been taught somethings that you use to spread false about others and books you dont understand from Adam and its an utter failure. Its a pity.



Jay smith maybe your God. But he is as ignorant as you. He doesn't know anything. He is good for ignorant people. Sounds nice for falsehood spreaders.


So your Google scholarship and your ex Muslim experts tell you Its definitely "Vagina" right?

Do me have vaginas? In which world is that?

Tell the believing men to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what they do. - 24:30. Sahih International

If you are seeking knowledge, you would honestly do that. But you are here, and probably are all over the place spreading hatred. Thats your aim, so you will never in your life do honest analysis.

Pretty lame. Men have vaginas in your world mate.

Well, perhaps you can tell me why even Muslim Arab translators translates different than you?
I attached many examples, and please note:
They are not some Google sources of mine.
It is a Muslim Website that collects all the translations from Arab speaking Muslims.
And there are still Muslim transl;ators who does translate the true words of the Arabic.

You can kick and shout, yor reasoning remains in error.
If you say that Mary guarded her "Chastity" then answer this!

How does Allah blow into Mary's chastity?

Obviously this word is an object, so what object can Allah blow into?
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Absolutely false. ;)

What is the fundamental meaning of the word Farj? Ask your expert ex muslims mate.



You are impose your own methodology and life experience to others. I feel sorry for you that your whole life you have been taught somethings that you use to spread false about others and books you dont understand from Adam and its an utter failure. Its a pity.



Jay smith maybe your God. But he is as ignorant as you. He doesn't know anything. He is good for ignorant people. Sounds nice for falsehood spreaders.


So your Google scholarship and your ex Muslim experts tell you Its definitely "Vagina" right?

Do me have vaginas? In which world is that?

Tell the believing men to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what they do. - 24:30. Sahih International

If you are seeking knowledge, you would honestly do that. But you are here, and probably are all over the place spreading hatred. Thats your aim, so you will never in your life do honest analysis.

Pretty lame. Men have vaginas in your world mate.
And why dont you go to the Arabic translators that uses "Private Parts in that Aya also?
Why translate Chastity, for Mary, but "Private parts for other people?
And it is impossible to blow into a chastity, you can blow into a private part though.
Do you see your error?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
On the "Quran neve changed, well that is not true at all.
The Quran Muslims have today is the Hafs 1928, yet there are numerous manuscripts dating from 150 years after muhammad that have many differences from the 1928.
You'll have to be more specific..
How have these variants changed the religion of Islam?
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
You'll have to be more specific..
How have these variants changed the religion of Islam?
Well, first.
After Uthman and Hakim destroyed all the original Qurans in existence, and Uthman standardised what he wanted to be in the Quran, it is obvious that no original qurans which existed during the time of Muhammad will be available for us to compare the current 1928 version which you call the Quran today.
However, the claim by Muslims that the quran has not changed a single letter or word over 1500 years, is easily proven as false.
If you go back to your own islamic Hadith, we find that there was 2 verses added to the Quran to glorify Muhammad. (the last 2 verses of sura 9)
Any Muslim who dont believe this, will have to explain the reason for the existance of Sunni and Shia Islam.

Then, there is many words changed between the upper and lowed writings of the Sanaa palmpsets, many differences, and not just differernt readings, between the Topkapi, Tuskent, Birmingham, and the Golden Quran in Kairo, with the text which you have in the 1928 Egyptian quran.

Lastly, where is the manuscripts which the Egyptian Muslim scholars used to compile the 1924/1928 Hafs version?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Well, perhaps you can tell me why even Muslim Arab translators translates different than you?

No no. You are the one who is presenting your Vagina absolute theory. So you tell me how come men have Vagina's according to your absolutism?

And why dont you go to the Arabic translators that uses "Private Parts in that Aya also?

But you didnt say "Private parts" mate. You said "VAGINA". Nothing more, nothing less.

And dont cherry pick like Jay Smirth your God. Read the whole sentence. Its "Guarding their private parts". That sentence means they are being "CHASTE". Its Hafiz Furoojahum.

But in your world, Men have Vaginas, nothing but vaginas.

Its an obsession on your part I think. That is why with no knowledge, you do cut and pastes, worship Jay Smith who cant read a word of arabic in any script. Nonsensical.

Cheers.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
After Uthman and Hakim destroyed all the original Qurans in existence,

So now you are a hadith absolutist right?

Still you are making things up. Uthmans hadith clearly says that he took Hafzas manuscript, and returned it to after the kuthub activity.

So this is not true.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
If you go back to your own islamic Hadith, we find that there was 2 verses added to the Quran to glorify Muhammad. (the last 2 verses of sura 9)

No. It says that Ali had a problem with these two verses added. It does not say that 2 verses were added. It says about other people fearing this has happened.

The question is, why do you believe a hadith like God given truth, in some books found in the 13th to 16th century books, but dont know the Qur'an? ;) Prove two verses were added in 7th century manuscripts if you can. Try and see.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
No. It says that Ali had a problem with these two verses added. It does not say that 2 verses were added. It says about other people fearing this has happened.

The question is, why do you believe a hadith like God given truth, in some books found in the 13th to 16th century books, but dont know the Qur'an? ;) Prove two verses were added in 7th century manuscripts if you can. Try and see.
Yes it does say that Ali said there were added to the Quran.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Yes it does say that Ali said there were added to the Quran.

Yeah. Someone about half a millennia later wrote, that someone said, that someone said, that Ali said, after 10 or 20 generations later, someone had added two verse.

You are a blind believer of the few hadith you have found somewhere. You are a hyper religious, anti islamic, blind believer of a few ahadith mate. Strange. Weird actually.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
How do you study ahadith? Whats your source of knowledge and whats your methodology?

In my vocabulary, study ahadith means study the science. Otherwise its reading only. So if I misunderstood you I apologise.



Without the science, how do you know what Muhammed said? You think ahadith are derived like that? Thats absolutely wrong. You dont read a hadith and derive what Muhammed said. There is a method for that.



Well, that's your wish. But I am not talking of exegesis.



Thanks for the cut and paste. Great.
Just for your information.
I decided to give you some pictures that shows you that I never pain to buy books, such as Islamic ones published by Muslim scholars, to learn what they wrote.
Here is a few pictures on the Qurans and other books I attained in my studies.
Also a Circle 7 Quran by the Islamic prophet Drew Ali.
And the Islamic Messenger of Allah, Rashid Khalifa, the "Final Testament" where he gives evidence that the Quran was added too.
You will see the Hadith of Al Bukhari is well worn due to me reading and studying it for over 7 years already.

I thought you might also like to see some of my Bibles out of the over 200 I have.
My study comprises of more than 1200 books, all religion, History, and Science.
 

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