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Islam: Ask your questions
- Thread starter Breathe
- Start date
Question:
If Islam means "submission to God" at what point does Islam become a religion?
My point is that submission to God/Allah is an act or way of living which is sufficient. Submission doesn't require itself to be recognised as a religion in it own right, or would you see this differently?
If Islam means "submission to God" at what point does Islam become a religion?
My point is that submission to God/Allah is an act or way of living which is sufficient. Submission doesn't require itself to be recognised as a religion in it own right, or would you see this differently?
After all what is religion? Deen means loyalty and a way of life. Deen to Allah means loyalty to Allah and consequently a way of life that is dedicated to God. You are not talking about two different things.
It could be what you mean that it's not necessary to believe in the last message of Muhammad.
Islam indeed means submission to God and this means following God in the way He wants. If God wanted us to submit to Him and follow His way through the teachings of the Qur'an and its practical aspects manifested in the Prophet Muhammad, and if you are truly submitter, you won't say no to this. See what the Qur'an says about those who believed in the previous Books of God "...it is true that those who were given knowledge beforehand, when it (the Qur'an) is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration, "And they say: 'Glory to our Lord! Truly has the promise of our Lord been fulfilled!" They fall down on their faces in tears, and it increases their (earnest) humility." Al-Israa:107-109
In other words submission to God should have a clear specific definition, a clear path otherwise "submission to God" to a pagan can mean a different thing from that of a hindu, etc.
It could be what you mean that it's not necessary to believe in the last message of Muhammad.
Islam indeed means submission to God and this means following God in the way He wants. If God wanted us to submit to Him and follow His way through the teachings of the Qur'an and its practical aspects manifested in the Prophet Muhammad, and if you are truly submitter, you won't say no to this. See what the Qur'an says about those who believed in the previous Books of God "...it is true that those who were given knowledge beforehand, when it (the Qur'an) is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration, "And they say: 'Glory to our Lord! Truly has the promise of our Lord been fulfilled!" They fall down on their faces in tears, and it increases their (earnest) humility." Al-Israa:107-109
In other words submission to God should have a clear specific definition, a clear path otherwise "submission to God" to a pagan can mean a different thing from that of a hindu, etc.
fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
Islam as Submission is not about words only, if you say you're a Muslim than prove it , whenever you hear a verse: O those who believed , you submit to the order, whenever you hear , the prophet peace be upon him said: do such and such , you submit to the rule.
And that is why Allah azza wajjal said in the beginning of Surah Ankabut :
2. Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: "We believe," and will not be tested?
ie tested wether their words are true or just.. words
Therefore we understand that Islam is a combination of words and acts, and this is why youll see Allah blaming Muslims who say what they do not do, in the following verses:
2. O you who believe! Why do you say that which you do not do?3. Most hateful it is with Allah that you say that which you do not do.
I hope what Ive said will be of benefit Inshallah
A-ManESL
Well-Known Member
That is indeed the universal understanding of Islam (provided submission is understood perfectly; submission itself can be understood in various ways like peace or harmony etc with the Divine Reality). In my opinion this is the meaning of saying that Islam was common to all messengers which propogated God's message in various nations. The Quran itself says that these messengers talked in the language of the people they belonged to (verse 14:4) ergo, in the traditions and cultures of the place where they were born.
In modern usage however, by Islam we usually mean the way of life based on submission together with the external traditions as followed by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).
Even if we accept this modern usage for the word Islam, the understanding that Islam as a religion is still problematic. In the words of noted comparative religion scholar, Wilfred Cantwell Smith, prophet Muhammad would have been, above all others perhaps, profoundly alarmed at any suggestion that he was starting a new religion. Smith points out (in his book The meaning and end of religion) that the Arabic language does not even have a word for religion, strictly speaking: he details how the word din, customarily translated as such, differs in significant important respects from the European concept.
Regards
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What does it mean "Muhammad above all others"? Moreover, are the "external traditions" of Muhammad any different from those of any prophet of God? Muhammad's message is no different that that of Jesus, Moses, etc. The deen of Allah is one. This means when Allah send a new messenger, the true Muslim rush to follow it as the Qur'an showed in the Ayah I quoted in my previous post. Refusing to follow the Qur'an doesn't manifest submission at all. We should revise the Qur'an's long speech to the people of the book. The Qur'an blamed them much for not believing in the Qur'an and it indicated their disbelief because if they were truly believers, they wouldn't say no to the messenger of God. Again, there shall be a specific guideline and a straight path.
Thanks a lot, Sahar, Fatima and A-Man
I see!
So to summarise my understanding of the above...
The message of Muhammad PBUH, shapes the act of submission - Islam. The Quran is the "clear path" as pointed out by Sahar, it is more than just saying "I submit to God" it must follow the message (the Quran). As Fatima says "Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: "We believe," and will not be tested?" It needs to be in the guidelines of the message of the Prophet.
That makes sense, that seems to be the bit overlooked in my question.
The sense I get from A-ManESL is that the message may not have intended to define what we see on these forums as a religion seperate to other abrahmic religions but a refined message from God for those positioned to follow it. I have the feeling that I should see Islam, submission, as a continuation of "the right way".
I see!
So to summarise my understanding of the above...The message of Muhammad PBUH, shapes the act of submission - Islam. The Quran is the "clear path" as pointed out by Sahar, it is more than just saying "I submit to God" it must follow the message (the Quran). As Fatima says "Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: "We believe," and will not be tested?" It needs to be in the guidelines of the message of the Prophet.
That makes sense, that seems to be the bit overlooked in my question.
The sense I get from A-ManESL is that the message may not have intended to define what we see on these forums as a religion seperate to other abrahmic religions but a refined message from God for those positioned to follow it. I have the feeling that I should see Islam, submission, as a continuation of "the right way".
A-ManESL
Well-Known Member
Muhammad above all others means, "forget other Muslims claiming so, even Prophet Muhammad" (in the opinion of Smith) ...
The essence of the message is of course the same for all messengers, but it differs in particularities or "external traditions". This is my understanding of the Quranic verse "And we never sent a messenger save the language of his folk"(14:4).
Nor do I accept that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) wanted true followers of other faiths (and I am not talking just of only Abrahamic religions here) to rush and follow the external way shown by him only (By the external way, I mean basically our Law). Whoever is following a true faith is in essence is implicitly following the Quran as well as all previous messages, without him/her claiming so explicitly. It would be egoistic for Muslims to claim that all previous messages are cancelled and this new message is the sole one remaining. In chapter 2 of the Quran, there are many rebukes for those Jews who began to understand themselves as some sort of "chosen ones". If Muslims start doing the same they become guilty of the same.
I understand your verse in the context of those Christians and Jews who were not accepting Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) in his time as a messenger of God. This verse was directed as a rebuke at them. It shouldn't be used without context.
There are many verses, in the Quran regarding true followers of other faiths. They do not use the past tense, clearly indicating that they applied to current adherents of other faiths, and not to those adherents before Prophet Muhammad(pbuh):
Regards
The Qur'an clearly states that "the external traditions" like praying, fasting, etc were prescribed for those who preceded Muhammad pbuh. Moreover, the prophet said ‘My similitude in comparison with the other prophets before me, is that of a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick in a corner. The people go about it and wonder at its beauty, but say: “Would that this brick be put in its place!” So I am that brick, and I am the last of the Prophets.’”
The verse you quoted means: that God have not sent any Messenger except with the tongue, with the language, of his people, that he might make [the Message] clear to them, that he might make them understand what he brings to them...
And Muhammad was sent by the tongue that fits the universality of the final message which is the Qur'an. The very first word revealed to the prophet Muhammad was "read" ending a stage of physical miracles as a basis for belief and announcing that the mature stage of humanity started when the Qur'an declared that intellect and knowledge are the basis for belief now. No one is going to be forced to believe even under the pressure of the physical miracles. And that's why the revelation to the prophet Muhammad is the end of communication between heaven and earth through revelation, it ended all the messages that preceded it. The miracle of the Qur'an will continue as long as human mind, intellect and knowledge are honored and respected.
To say egoistic implies that they are different. This is not true. Who followed the message of Musa, would follow the message of 'Isa. ًWho followed the message of Musa and 'Isa would follow the message of Muhammad. This is not egoistic. This is believing in all God's prophets without any discrimination. Refusing to follow a certain prophet is, in essence, refusing to follow the message itself. When God says this person is my prophet and you must follow him, and someone come and say no, I don't want to follow him...this means this person doesn't follow God in the first place.
From Surat An-Nisa':
150. Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allāh and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allāh and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between –
151. Those are the disbelievers, truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.
152. But they who believe in Allāh and His messengers and do not discriminate between any of them – to those He is going to give their rewards. And ever is Allāh Forgiving and Merciful.
Really? God says in His Book:
64. And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allāh. And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muúammad], and asked forgiveness of Allāh and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allāh Accepting of repentance and Merciful.
An-Nisa'
32. Say, "Obey Allāh and the Messenger." But if they turn away – then indeed, Allāh does not like the disbelievers.
ِAl-Baqarah
65. But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muúammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission.
The Qur'an in its every side speaks how following the last Prophet and the Laws revealed unto him is a must to be a believer.
Who said they are canceled? Muslims claim that Muhammad's message is the same of previous prophets and messengers.
If Muhammad and Musa guide to the same path.
Refusing any of them means refusing this path.
That's why the Qur'an asked the people of the book to follow the new messenger because he called for the same.
19. O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allāh is over all things competent.
Al-Ma'idah
No. You misunderstand the entire issue. The Jews started to think they are the chosen one because of their ethnicity, because they were Bani-Israel even though they disobeyed God. But the Qur'an corrected their idle thinking; what matters is following God's path and message.
God said in His book in Surat Al-Baqarah:
110. You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allāh. If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient.
143. And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you.
This preference is deserved because they followed God and His messenger. Whenever any community do this, they must acquire this preference.
The verse is speaking about the people of the book who were true believers and when they knew of the message of Muhammad which is the same as theirs, they "fall down on their faces in humble prostration, "And they say: 'Glory to our Lord! Truly has the promise of our Lord been fulfilled!" They fall down on their faces in tears, and it increases their (earnest) humility."
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fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
Islam accept anyone as long as he/she believes that Allah is God and that Muhammad and all the others prophets are His messengers. Than after it come the learning process of whats wrong and whats right.
All sins committed before coming to Islam are forgiven. No matter how bad they were. They are forgiven. One who converts to Islam is totally reborn and starts with a clean record.
‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas said: “When Allaah put the love of Islam into my heart, I came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to pledge my allegiance to him. He stretched out his hand towards me, but I said, ‘I will not pledge allegiance to you, O Messenger of Allaah, until you forgive me my previous sins.’ The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to me, ‘O ‘Amr, do you not know that Islam wipes out whatever sins came before it.’” (Narrated by Imaam Ahmad, 17159).
Of course, Allah knows what in the hearts of humans so if someone is converting while he still has the intention to stay as he was, than the hadeeth doesnt apply. The hadeeth applies to those sincere in their repent, sincere in their accepting of Islam.
You must know, may Allah preserve you, that Islam doesnt make any difference between races, colors, languages and thats why the prophet peace be upon him said in his last sermon in his last Hajj:
you know that every Muslim is the brother of another Muslim. You are all equal. Nobody has superiority over other except by piety and good action.
And in another hadeeth that I wasnt able to find in english ( I have hard times finding the translation of the hadeeth in arabic I learn so I apologise) ; the prophet pbuh mentioned that theres no difference between an arab and non arab , a black and a white except by piety.
You can also read the last sermon of the prophet peace be upon him here, one cannot get enough of rereading it:
Last Sermon of Muhammad (Peace be upon him) (check the footnotes too , it might interest you)
I hope what Ive said will be of benefit Inshallah
All sins committed before coming to Islam are forgiven. No matter how bad they were. They are forgiven. One who converts to Islam is totally reborn and starts with a clean record.
‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas said: “When Allaah put the love of Islam into my heart, I came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to pledge my allegiance to him. He stretched out his hand towards me, but I said, ‘I will not pledge allegiance to you, O Messenger of Allaah, until you forgive me my previous sins.’ The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to me, ‘O ‘Amr, do you not know that Islam wipes out whatever sins came before it.’” (Narrated by Imaam Ahmad, 17159).
Of course, Allah knows what in the hearts of humans so if someone is converting while he still has the intention to stay as he was, than the hadeeth doesnt apply. The hadeeth applies to those sincere in their repent, sincere in their accepting of Islam.
You must know, may Allah preserve you, that Islam doesnt make any difference between races, colors, languages and thats why the prophet peace be upon him said in his last sermon in his last Hajj:
you know that every Muslim is the brother of another Muslim. You are all equal. Nobody has superiority over other except by piety and good action.
And in another hadeeth that I wasnt able to find in english ( I have hard times finding the translation of the hadeeth in arabic I learn so I apologise) ; the prophet pbuh mentioned that theres no difference between an arab and non arab , a black and a white except by piety.
You can also read the last sermon of the prophet peace be upon him here, one cannot get enough of rereading it:
Last Sermon of Muhammad (Peace be upon him) (check the footnotes too , it might interest you)
I hope what Ive said will be of benefit Inshallah
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Okay, I suppose I have a question, since I am trying to be more understanding of Muslims. How do Muslims treat Pagans in an Islamic country? Like would a Pagan be allowed to live and keep our religion?
David69
Angel Of The North
Thank you
I am suprised! (pleasently)
If the Messiah is of a none religious background how is he expected to convert?
He will recognise all abrahamic religions and there is one father! and imo he will bring them together as one family!!! Hopefully there will be one world religion!
If there is one abrahamic religion there should be a new name for it perhaps?
fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
LoL I think I have not understood your question correctly, and missed the Messiah word ; I thought you were speaking about a white european person in general
You must have been really suprised by my answer for sure lol , now lets clear everything and go back to point zero, what kind of Messiah are you talking about?
You must have been really suprised by my answer for sure lol , now lets clear everything and go back to point zero, what kind of Messiah are you talking about?
David69
Angel Of The North
LoL I think I have not understood your question correctly, and missed the Messiah word ; I thought you were speaking about a white european person in general
You must have been really suprised by my answer for sure lol , now lets clear everything and go back to point zero, what kind of Messiah are you talking about?
Theres only one Messiah, the jewish messiah ben David, christian messiah jesus not sure what islam call there messiah... The saviour of the world! that one?
there all the same messiah imo. apointed by God to do Gods work!
Thanks
fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
The Messiah of Islam is Jesus pbuh himself
David69
Angel Of The North
wow thats great news for me, I thought that jesus was to come first recognised by the muslems as a great prophet and then usher in the real messiah... not sure what pbuh means!The Messiah of Islam is Jesus pbuh himself
in my beleif jesus tells the nations: I send forth my angel to testify that I am the root and the offspring of David, we are one!!!
IMHO Jesus is saying that David is the second coming!!! and he will go on through Davids offspring!
So white european, none religious background etc?
Thanks
A-ManESL
Well-Known Member
Yes external traditions are there in all religions. My point is that they appear differently in all religions.
Yes they were not different in essence. But there external Shariats were different. If you study all religions all around the world this is evident.
To say that as of now, only Prophet Muhammad's external Shariat is valid is egoistic. This is what I am referring to. To a Hindu, I say become a true Hindu and that will be automatically Islam (regardless of non-usage of His term Islam), to a Christian, become a true Christian and that will automatically Islam and so on.
I do not agree to this, sorry. In my opinion you are taking 2:32 out of context. It was addressed to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) when he was sad that people were rejecting him. It wasn't meant to say that anyone who rejects Prophet Muhammad's(pbuh) Law is a disbeliever. (This is hidden egoism IMHO) And I fail to see how the other verses apply.
I am referring to the Law Sahar. In my opinion all messages internally or spiritually are the same but their outward expression is through theology and jurisprudence. This varies from faith to faith. If someone says all other theologies are incorrect, all other Jurisprudences are incorrect and the one followed by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is the only valid one today, then I will say this is being egoistic.
Exactly! This is exactly how many Muslims think of their ummah today. They think people of other religions are wrong and only they are right. That this is wrong is basically my whole point.
Regards