I mentionned about 2nd amendment , it's about guns rights , right ?
it's gave to American the right of defence by guns , so many Americans used to break the law. to attack people.
So some Muslims are break the Islamic laws.
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Islam fights free speech
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
it's gave to American the right of defence by guns , so many Americans used to break the law. to attack people.
So some Muslims are break the Islamic laws.
He and others intentionnally ignore/skip this .
Yes. I hope so.
As long there is hope for hope, there is hope
And some Muslims. Muslims are humans too and they do mistakes. I agree that it is not Islam that needs reform, but some pf those who are taken to represent it.
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The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
No, I'm not saying the whole blame should be placed on others. It's not the case that the blame can only ever be placed on one person or group.
To try and highlight what I perceive as a flaw in your thinking I would point out that Muslim theology says that while Allah placed us here - in many cases in a state of disbelief - we are ultimately responsible for our choices no matter how influenced they are by the state we're created in. Apply that logic here and individual Muslims who choose to join the likes of Islamic State, Al Qaeda or whichever passing group of fanatics with an axe to grind, and they should bear the responsibility for that choice.
Yes, NATO destabilised Libya. There's no getting around that. And no, I'm not saying the Libyans are at fault for wanting to be free of a tyrant's iron grip. Who can blame them?
What I'm saying is that whether the West had intervened or stood back and did nothing, the Muslim world would have found a way to assign blame.
- If we had stood back and did nothing it would be the case of another dictator armed and supported by the West massacring his citizens;
- If we help topple the tyrant's government and stop his army from engaging in said mass slaughter we're agents of chaos who created a failed state;
- If we toppled Gaddafi's regime and actively helped the Libyans secure Libya while they rebuild their government, we're imperialist kuffar who are meddling in Muslim affairs again and we aren't welcome on Muslim soil.
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Taking a step back for a moment, the reason our approaches are so different is perhaps because of the nature of the responses. I am assuming that you realising Islam is a problem would mean you become a critic of it. You think in terms within the context of liberal individualism. So You wouldn't contemplate taking away Muslims human rights or freedom of religion.
I am not an individualist and my attitude to human rights violations is ethically "blurred" by it. The individual and their rights doesn't quite have the same moral significance because it is dependent on context. For me realising Islam is a problem would involve recognising Muslims as a category of people are a threat to society and to the state. It would involve taking political steps to restrict Muslims freedom of religion and many others for spreading a "dangerous" idea. An anti-Muslim dictatorship becomes necessary to at least manage the threat in society. Consequently, my threshold for "proving" that Islam is dangerous is higher because of the implications are more serious.
If I thought Muslims were a problem I'd understand that as a rational for physical persecution of Muslims. That's why I'd want to exhaust every option I can think of first before taking that step. I'm going to take a guess that that is why we differ.
We're already both Fascists Laika. We are. You know we are.
Akivah
Well-Known Member
The response to your post was predictable. Muslims have several stock answers to criticism about some Muslim's behavior:
1. Scream ISLAMOPHOBIA
2. Bring up the Holocaust or Judaism
3. Point out how unfair other countries are or how Westerners have bad behavior.
But Muslims will NEVER address the specific points raised in a post to discuss Muslim behavior.
From the linked article in the OP:
A) For criticizing Islam in his book 'Der Islamische Faschismus: Eine Analyse', Hamed Abdel-Samad lives under police protection in Germany and a fatwa calling for his death hangs over him.
B) Salman Rushdie wrote 'The Satanic Verses' in 1988. Muslims made death threats against him and fatwas were issued calling for his assassination. He currently lives under police protection in Britain.
C) American writer Sherry Jones wrote about the life of the third wife of Muhammad in a book named 'The Jewel of Medina'. The publisher's office was firebombed by Islamists in London.
Why won't any Muslim directly address these Muslim actions?
Across the world of Muslim majority countries, from west Africa, to NE Africa, to the ME, to SW Asia and all the way to SE Asia, we see Muslims interpreting Islam in some similar ways. We see misogyny, homophobia, a desire for theocracy, a supremacist attitude, anti-semetism, and so on. These are commonly held attitudes. It is attitudes like this that need reform.
When I bring this up I hear all sorts of justifications. I'm open for other explanations, but please remember, these attitudes are commonly held across many geographic regions, many cultures, and many economic situations. The common thread appears to be Islam, but if you feel there is another explanation, I'm open to hearing it.
I agree that the global financial system is ALSO in need a reform! Hey, we have a point of agreement!
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Actually, both are flawed and need to be reformed. Unless you believe repressing religious minorities is a virtuous behaviour. In which event you'll have no problem if Western countries start emulating Muslim countries by repressing Muslims and other minorities.
Hey Laika, It's helpful to understand your position more completely - thanks.
I think you made a few logical leaps in your argument however. E.g. I don't see why the only way to help reform Islam is to create an "anti-Muslim dictatorship"?
And wow, when have I EVER advocated for the physical persecution of anyone?
You talk in your sleep, Icehorse. We know. We monitor everyone. That's why we're here.
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I will make another exemple :
Again when you make a tournaments, don't blame others to join in.
I do believe West is aim/target anti-Western regimes especially which had oil, there is much unpleasant regime to West, the West don't care about them.
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1- I bring Holocaust just analyse the double stand about freedom of speech in West.
for I brang Judaism that's personal between me and @icehorse.
2- because most Muslim behavior is result of West intervention.
We actually address action at the moments, I just find it's unjustice to DON'T back to source of problem which IS the intervention of West in Muslim world.
Plus don't forget that It's hard to satisfy someone considered your "ANTI".
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I think we've got somewhere.
Whilst you may not intend to do so, at some point any practical attempt to deal with Islam as a problem will cross over to treating Muslims as the problem. You can't get rid of an idea or change it without also affecting the people who believe it, who adhere to it and use it throughout their lives. You have already said that you haven't been able to get Muslims to change your minds (which is why you didn't want to talk to them in their DIR) but maybe you need to think about what's further down that road.
The reason I'm so forgiving of Muslims (and yes, I am excessively so-I really should be a lot more hostile) is because I consider it the lesser evil to the alternative. I am one of the few people who would seriously contemplate state atheism. By that standard I should be by far the most anti-religious person on the forum but at the same time when you think about what it entails it puts my criticisms of religious groups into perspective. As a gay atheist Id be stoned under Islamic Law, but I don't really "hate" Muslims enough to argue the case that I would have to respond in kind. I've never found myself in a situation where I could say persecution would be good or right, but there is a point when it's necessary. If you put me in Syria, I'd probably start shooting at ISIL because they'd want to kill me but I'm not inclined to do that to every Muslim simply for being Muslim. Being Muslim doesn't make someone a threat in itself so I wouldn't want to physically hurt them.
I know. I just don't want people to sleep walk there. Getting them to wake up and realise the road they are on is much more preferable. I've yet to see anyone who keeps walking after that point. "Once I was blind but now I can see".
The problem here is not 'Islam' - because there are so many forms of Islam, whether one wants to talk about the inevitable variation in belief and practice among individuals or the multitude of different schools of thought and sects (as with other religions) I am not sure we can often say Islam this or Islam that, or Christianity this or Christianity that (to take just two examples), except if we are discussing the essential points of agreement across all these different forms/interpretations (which we are rarely doing on forums like this).
The problem here is a dominant form or interpretation of Islam, which means that many Muslims do, unfortunately in my opinion (as a Muslim), hold these kinds of attitudes. I agree that these attitudes need challenging. So I would much rather you add some form of qualifier to your references to Islam this and Islam that - you could say things like 'conservative forms of Islam...' or 'traditionalist forms of Islam...' or 'many Muslims...' or 'some Muslims...' or 'it is a commonly held belief in country x that...' or 'it seems as if many Muslims across the Muslim world believe that...' etc. etc. I know it's easier to just say Islam this or Islam that, but not only is this factually incorrect (given the existence of such a huge - and legitimate - variation in beliefs and practices among Muslims), but it also inevitably riles many of those Muslims who do not hold these attitudes. e.g. I am a Muslim. And my faith is very important to me. But I am not a misogynist or homophobe, have no desire for theocracy whatsoever, and I don't think I am supremacist or anti-Semitic (or rather anti-Jewish) in my views. The next Muslim might (or might not) have something of a cultural tendency towards homophobia (depending on how that term is defined) but not be a misogynist (again, perhaps depending on how that term is defined). Etc. etc.
This is fantastic! So in the past I've tried "Islamist" as a term to describe conservative forms of Islam. I'm not at all attached to a particular term, but it would be great for the world if we could agree to a term for "that subset of Muslims that hold those more conservative beliefs". Any ideas? Would you be okay with "Islamist" ?
CORRECTION: Some Muslims trot these stock answers out. Or, it seems that many Muslims trot these stock answers out. We don't all do.
That said, to respond to each of these individually:
1. 'Islamophobia' is a multi-faceted thing. If we read Islamophobia as a phobia or a (strong) dislike of a set of ideas/practices commonly associated with Islam, then I (as a Muslim) don't have an inherent problem with that. I believe my faith is a strong one and perfectly capable of withstanding criticism. But beyond that, I believe all ideas should be up for debate. However, for some Islamophobes, that's not what Islamophobia is at all. For some, it is a hatred of all Muslims, period. Without distinction. And often closely wrapped up with racist views, particularly if they are also white (not only towards Muslims, I should say, but just about every black- or brown-skinned person too, and in some/many cases, also Jews). This latter sort of Islamophobia is in play too.
2. I do have a problem with the laws around Holocaust denial. I understand the arguments commonly made for why these have been put in place, but for me they aren't sufficient to trump freedom of expression. I should say that I certainly don't deny the catastrophe that Hitler et al inflicted on the Jewish people (and many other people besides, including many Muslims).
3. There are problems everywhere. But yes, it is unfortunate that many Muslims do attempt to deflect criticism of Islam with this, rather than engage with the substance of the criticism of Islam.
Here's rocking that boat!
I condemn this fatwa.
I condemn these death threats and fatwas.
I condemn this behaviour on the part of these Muslims.
There you go!