Alla Prima
Well-Known Member
so how come still ego speaks?
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Are you suggesting that all who have submitted to Allah have no ego?
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Islam, how much do you really know about it?
- Thread starter Gharib
- Start date
Are you suggesting that all who have submitted to Allah have no ego?
Alla Prima
Well-Known Member
.lava you have not convinced me in the least that Islam does not denigrate Unbelievers and that these Unbelievers are any who follow other religions or no religion. Your argument was extremely weak. So my original position still holds.
you called me non believer you got word from east and another from west
then that is your post
the final meaning
no thing
.lava
Veteran Member
you are not here to ask to know about Islam. you are sure you know it. so why do you ask questions? you believe anything you want. i follow Qur'an and anyone without judgemental behavior would understand what i am saying from my posts. people like you, prefer to ignore all the concepts of Qur'an such as FASIK, therefor you would never understand it. you are comfortable with your weak understanding of Holy Qur'an and you would do your best to hold on to it.
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.lava
Veteran Member
no, i have ego. submission of ego is very high level of sainthood. don't bother asking about them.
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Alla Prima
Well-Known Member
Alla Prima
Well-Known Member
Why is this too far above my mini brain?
.lava
Veteran Member
what do you mean link? it is in Qur'an. it is in original text. look, fasik is a name of certain people. they hide the truth of religion from others. they are not ordinary disbelievers. if you knew a truth that would prevent people from eternal pain, would you hide it? i hope not. and i think not but they would and they do, they are. therefor God calls them in Qur'an as the most cruel or as in the verse you shared 3:85 vilest of beats.
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.lava
Veteran Member
ÂLÄ° Ä°MRÂN Suresi, 82. ayeti tefsiri - Kur'an-ı Kerim Lafzı ve Ruhu - Ä°mam Ä°skender Ali MÄ°HR
the word FASIK can not be translated with its original meaning. it has to explained in English. here is the link you ask for. the page for 3:82 where it says they are FASIK people then in 3:85 calls FASIK people vilest of beasts.
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the word FASIK can not be translated with its original meaning. it has to explained in English. here is the link you ask for. the page for 3:82 where it says they are FASIK people then in 3:85 calls FASIK people vilest of beasts.
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Alla Prima
Well-Known Member
Alla Prima
Well-Known Member
They're not labeled as Unbelievers. They're labeled as transgressors and miscreants.
003.082
YUSUFALI: If any turn back after this, they are perverted transgressors.
PICKTHAL: Then whosoever after this shall turn away: they will be miscreants.
SHAKIR: Whoever therefore turns back after this, these it is that are the transgressors.
Who are the Idolaters and the Polytheists?
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.lava
Veteran Member
Alla Prima
Well-Known Member
In your post 1311 you quoted verse 3:82 as a defence to my charge that Unbelievers are denigrated. There is no term Unbeliever (or disbliever) in verse 3:82. Unbelievers and transgressers are two different terms describing two different people.
Disbeliever could apply to any who reject Islam.
008.055
SHAKIR: Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe.
.lava
Veteran Member
OK, i believe there is a little confusion. sorry if i caused it.
this is your post above. in this verse you shared, it tells about FASIK people. we have to read earlier verses to understand it. i was trying to explain you, those people that this verse talks about are not ordinary disbelievers. they have a name, fasik and fasik people are disbelievers too but not all disbelievers are fasik.
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Alla Prima
Well-Known Member
Sorry but the verse does not indicate a particular type of person. Quite the opposite. It says:
"If anyone desires a religion"
and
"whoever desires a religion"
It affirms 'anyone' not Fasik people or lose people or traitors but anyone. Anyone means any person at all. Whoever means: whatever person - no matter who. This means all who do not submit to Allah.
.lava
Veteran Member
yes, anyone who betrayal God after witnessing the truth and that would anyone who's in the position of a FASIK.
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YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Fair enough, but it does tend to offset your message when that message is couched in disputable points, casually added as if they were facts.
I judge whom I please, .lava -- as actions merit.
Sadly, I no longer care about such trifles as 'world peace'. You see, for so-called 'world peace' to really work, every living person must be on the same page, at the same time and that is never going to happen. Its a nice idea, but I wouldnt advise anyone to hold their breath. There will be peace only when there is no one left who feels a need to fight.
Apology accepted, and you are correct, it is quite impossible to come up with an accurate number which was precisely why I chose to take you to task on it.
But how can a person betray something that has never been proven to be real (i.e. witnessing the Truth) in the first place? The concept itself is nonsensical as it is based on a premise that cannot be proven.
Let's see if I am following you.
A: God exists.
(Unfortunately this can neither be proven, nor can it be disproven and is therefore a moot point.)
B: A human animal (a person) comes very close to God by 'witnessing the truth'.
(Given that A cannot be established one way or the other, B is therefore an unlikely occurrence.)
C: Having 'witnessed the truth' the human animal (the person) turns their back on this 'truth' and attempt to work against it, which would mean that they are fighting FOR a lie, knowing full well what they are fighting against.
(Given that both A and B are inherently problematic, it can only be concluded that C is a highly unlikely occurrence. Aside from this is the simple fact that someone wise enough to reach the stage of 'witnessing the truth' and would then actually choose to work against that reality stretched credulity -- to say the least.)
Is there something I am misunderstanding here?
.lava
Veteran Member
sorry, that is not what i meant. i am talking about judging masses. as in, an American soldier rapes an Iraqi girl, and i believe any American would do the same. maybe that would be better if i say 'one should not generalize'.
yes, there would always be war on Earth.
C would be the right one. only in this case, of course. however it seems like i was not clear enough. in Islam (Tasavvuf/Sufism) there are 28 levels. the most difficult of all levels is 25th. but 26th level is the most important one. because this is the point when one submits his ego/nafs. after some one reach that point, he would not betrayal God. it is possible to 'fall' until you get there. these people, as we call them Fasik, are the ones who reached 14th level and fell and went back to 2nd/1st. at 14th level people reach their Masters. Master means someone who completed 28 levels of Islam, in other words, someone who does not have free will. people witness him as a guidance from God and they have no doubt, they know he is given duty by God. they make a promise to God infront of him. when they fall, they broke that promise and become Fasik. they make a promise for the truth they witness. that truth is not the ultimate truth. ultimate truth is seeing God at 28th level.Let's see if I am following you.
A: God exists.
(Unfortunately this can neither be proven, nor can it be disproven and is therefore a moot point.)
B: A human animal (a person) comes very close to God by 'witnessing the truth'.
(Given that A cannot be established one way or the other, B is therefore an unlikely occurrence.)
C: Having 'witnessed the truth' the human animal (the person) turns their back on this 'truth' and attempt to work against it, which would mean that they are fighting FOR a lie, knowing full well what they are fighting against.
(Given that both A and B are inherently problematic, it can only be concluded that C is a highly unlikely occurrence. Aside from this is the simple fact that someone wise enough to reach the stage of 'witnessing the truth' and would then actually choose to work against that reality stretched credulity -- to say the least.)
Is there something I am misunderstanding here?
PS: how's your health? i hope you're better. sorry to know you went through a painful process.
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Alla Prima
Well-Known Member
But it doesn't say that.
Alla Prima
Well-Known Member
Let me see if I understand you. You're saying that the vilest creatures in Allah's site are those who witnessed the truth, still believe in that truth but say to others they don't believe in the truth they once witnessed (in other words they're lying).
Or is it they witnessed the truth but now don't believe the truth they once witnessed. Which is it?
Ok I just read your response to YmirGF's question which was similar to mine. So they're fighting for a lie and in fact are lying.
This does not make sense. Why would someone believe in something yet want others to reject it? Why would someone believe in something yet say they don't. Does not make sense and does make sense that there would be not just one or two crazies with this nonsensical affliction but so many that a verse addressing a mass craziness would have to be written. Doesn't make sense.
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