Islam, how much do you really know about it?

[YmirGF]

C would be the right one. only in this case, of course. however it seems like i was not clear enough. in Islam (Tasavvuf/Sufism) there are 28 levels. the most difficult of all levels is 25th. but 26th level is the most important one. because this is the point when one submits his ego/nafs. after some one reach that point, he would not betrayal God. it is possible to 'fall' until you get there. these people, as we call them Fasik, are the ones who reached 14th level and fell and went back to 2nd/1st. at 14th level people reach their Masters. Master means someone who completed 28 levels of Islam, in other words, someone who does not have free will. people witness him as a guidance from God and they have no doubt, they know he is given duty by God. they make a promise to God infront of him. when they fall, they broke that promise and become Fasik. they make a promise for the truth they witness. that truth is not the ultimate truth. ultimate truth is seeing God at 28th level.

Ok, this much I undertand. I think it is important to underscore that the ideas above are purely Sufi and not representative of the Sunni perspective. Would that be a fair statement, .lava.

PS: how's your health? i hope you're better. sorry to know you went through a painful process.

I am fine now. Kidney stones are NOT fun, you have my word on that. A side benefit, due to all the tests that were run on me, is that I am in otherwise good health, though my doctor has said that perhaps it would be wise to consider quitting smoking. I am giving it some thought. Likewise, I am on a diet now and plan to lose 35 pound. (I am not fat... *looks around nervously* -- but I am lugging around more than I need to.) Overall, I look upon the experience as an experience in raw pain that has helped me to understand people who are in pain much better. I learned that pain, for example, is a very, VERY selfish thing. THAT was a real eye-opener. I am planning to write about my experience a bit expanding on the idea of pain being a highly selfish thing, but am still trying to find the right words.
It is a delicate subject, lol.

Thanks for asking, and I do hope you and those you love are doing well.

 

[Muffled]

But it doesn't say that.

I agree with you. The very act of desiring a religion rules out the possiblity of that person being Fasik because the Fasik already had a religion.

 

[Luminous]

you called me non believer you got word from east and another from west
then that is your post
the final meaning
no thing

: Those who ignore the true values of this world will have to settle for pearls.

 

[Luminous]

you called me non believer

Because you don't believe me when i tell you the fact that God wants all to confess they are Agnostic.

 

[Luminous]

you are not here to ask to know about Islam. you are sure you know it. so why do you ask questions? you believe anything you want. i follow Qur'an and anyone without judgemental behavior would understand what i am saying from my posts. people like you, prefer to ignore all the concepts of Qur'an such as FASIK, therefor you would never understand it. you are comfortable with your weak understanding of Holy Qur'an and you would do your best to hold on to it.

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The post asks how much one knows about it. not to believe it (which is illegal to ask here in RF ithink) He does not ask questions he points out what he believes is true. everyone must Know the truth, not just "believe what ever you want". God wants use to know all are Agnostic. I dought that you don't have judgemental behavior becuase you believe that your way is the right way. You prefer to ignore all the concepts of Pagan works. It is you who is comfortable with your weak understanding of probable reality and you would also do your best to hold on to it.
So in the end you two are the same. why? because you are both falty humans. as all people are.

 

[Luminous]

yes, anyone who betrayal God after witnessing the truth and that would anyone who's in the position of a FASIK.

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So, no one is fasik. because no one has or everwill witness such truth as "What does God want me to do".
People who convert away from Muhammadism are not FASIK because they NEVER witness such 'truth'. if they had, then they would have known that Islam is the true religion.

 

[Alla Prima]

So, no one is fasik. because no one has or everwill witness such truth as "What does God want me to do".
People who convert away from Muhammadism are not FASIK because they NEVER witness such 'truth'. if they had, then they would have known that Islam is the true religion.

Brilliant.

 

[.lava]

Let me see if I understand you. You're saying that the vilest creatures in Allah's site are those who witnessed the truth, still believe in that truth but say to others they don't believe in the truth they once witnessed (in other words they're lying).

Or is it they witnessed the truth but now don't believe the truth they once witnessed. Which is it?


Ok I just read your response to YmirGF's question which was similar to mine. So they're fighting for a lie and in fact are lying.

This does not make sense. Why would someone believe in something yet want others to reject it? Why would someone believe in something yet say they don't. Does not make sense and does make sense that there would be not just one or two crazies with this nonsensical affliction but so many that a verse addressing a mass craziness would have to be written. Doesn't make sense.

each person has a unique path. but in general, it is because of one's reputation in society and money. for example, if he has business deals with people who do not follow Qur'an, he begins losing his deals or he loses his job. when he fears this, when he realizes that he could not handle reaction and in case money means more important to him, he choses money and power over religion. this is the most common one. very same thing happened in the past. some people, even though they knew messenger was truly messenger of God, they still stood against him because he was rejected by powerful people of society.


.

 

[.lava]

So, no one is fasik. because no one has or everwill witness such truth as "What does God want me to do".
People who convert away from Muhammadism are not FASIK because they NEVER witness such 'truth'. if they had, then they would have known that Islam is the true religion.

i never said they convert away. matter of fact they don't. some of them are religious leaders who appear to be men of God. at this moment of time, there are so many of them. it is very difficult for someone to say 'i was wrong' after leading people to wrong path for 40-50 years.

.

 

[.lava]

Ok, this much I undertand. I think it is important to underscore that the ideas above are purely Sufi and not representative of the Sunni perspective. Would that be a fair statement, .lava.

that would be unfair. i know i am in Tasavvuf but our knowledge comes from Qur'an. Tasavvuf means Islam.

I am fine now. Kidney stones are NOT fun, you have my word on that. A side benefit, due to all the tests that were run on me, is that I am in otherwise good health, though my doctor has said that perhaps it would be wise to consider quitting smoking. I am giving it some thought. Likewise, I am on a diet now and plan to lose 35 pound. (I am not fat... *looks around nervously* -- but I am lugging around more than I need to.) Overall, I look upon the experience as an experience in raw pain that has helped me to understand people who are in pain much better. I learned that pain, for example, is a very, VERY selfish thing. THAT was a real eye-opener. I am planning to write about my experience a bit expanding on the idea of pain being a highly selfish thing, but am still trying to find the right words.

It is a delicate subject, lol.

Thanks for asking, and I do hope you and those you love are doing well.

pain is more real than anything while you feel it. i had some experiences too. i am glad you passed that process.

.

 

[.lava]

But it doesn't say that.

it does and that is why i keep saying there might be inner meanings in verses of Qur'an. do you even understand what it means?

as i told you before, Qur'an describes people and divide them in two. always in 2. the main separation is between people who wish to reach God and people who do not wish to reach God. do not forget this. in some verses, God invites believers to taqwa. many people translate taqwa as fear. but taqwa does not mean fear. there is another word for fear in Arabic. God invites believers to taqwa to earn heaven. if you did not know relaiton between verses and meanings of some words correctly, then you can not explain this to yourself. you should know that there are people who spend their life time to study this book. it is not a easy book, it is not a novel. you need to find connections between verses because verses complete each other and after that you reach an understanding. there are more than 6000 verses, you do not know exact meanings of some words what we call concepts of Qur'an such as fasik. being a Muslim is not enough to understand it either. a Muslim could not understand why God invites believers to something else to survive from hell. because he thinks just to believe in God would save him...well, Qur'an does not say so.

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[.lava]

Alla Prima,

i do not know who you are, i do not know if you are honest person. just for the sake of God, i am writing. please read this carefully.

Qur'an describes people. in translations, maybe because of ignorance of men (because they are simply translating) or maybe because they knowingly do it, what you'd find is poor. in translations you'd always see two opposites, believer and disbeliever. but inside Qur'an, we see God describes believers differently. it divides believers in two sides too. then takes one of them and describe differences again. it is same with disbelievers. am i being clear? for a out side reader, it appears as if there are only two kinds of men described in Qur'an. it is much deeper than that. duality means two sides but there are separations among each side. this is one of the aspects of inner meaning. there are more. but this one happens to be the first thing you can't see.

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[Alla Prima]

each person has a unique path. but in general, it is because of one's reputation in society and money. for example, if he has business deals with people who do not follow Qur'an, he begins losing his deals or he loses his job. when he fears this, when he realizes that he could not handle reaction and in case money means more important to him, he choses money and power over religion. this is the most common one. very same thing happened in the past. some people, even though they knew messenger was truly messenger of God, they still stood against him because he was rejected by powerful people of society.


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So 'Unbelievers' in the Koran always refers to these people who lie about being Muslims? Who are the Idolators and the Polytheists?

 

[Luminous]

I think that Sufi Islam is not Sunni Islam. But both are sects of Muhammadist Islam. I am Agnostic Submission with 8+fold path.
I am what i term "a Quaking Disciple of God".

 

[Alla Prima]

Alla Prima,

i do not know who you are,

Does not matter. I don't know who you are either.

 

[.lava]

So 'Unbelievers' in the Koran always refers to these people who lie about being Muslims? Who are the Idolators and the Polytheists?

no, this is complicated and this is what i am trying to say. an ordinary unbeliever is not a fasik.

i would come back for idoliaters and polytheists, i hope.

yes, you do not know who i am. but it still matters if i was honest or a liar. time is the most precious thing i have. to me, it worth spending my time for a honest person regardless what he believes or says.

.

 

[.lava]

I think that Sufi Islam is not Sunni Islam. But both are sects of Muhammadist Islam. I am Agnostic Submission with 8+fold path.
I am what i term "a Quaking Disciple of God".

hi there is only one Islam. just 1. no sections in Qur'an.

.

 

[Luminous]

no, this is complicated and this is what i am trying to say. an ordinary unbeliever is not a fasik.

i would come back for idoliaters and polytheists, i hope.

yes, you do not know who i am. but it still matters if i was honest or a liar. time is the most precious thing i have. to me, it worth spending my time for a honest person regardless what he believes or says.

.

What you say goes against the tenents of Agnosticism. :sad: Non can know truth. there is always dought. as well there should be. one should not believe just because... one should scruttenize religions. which is what i do. it is my way of seeking the truth. the Seculars say that gods never existed to first homo sapians sapians. but then they said magical creatures existed, then they made them have powers over certain things, then Jews decided that only YHWH (pagan jewish god of sun) existed after influence from uniRahism(believe that the only God left is Egyptian Sun God who defeated the rest) made them monotheists. then jesus came and said he was Son of God. then Muhammad said that the Quran was pure word of God. I can dought this.

 

[Luminous]

hi there is only one Islam. just 1. no sections in Qur'an.

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Yes, there is only one Qur'anic Islam but you see i have submitted to the will of God. if i was was speaking arabic i would be folower of Islam. but i talk English so i am follower of Submission. Between Sufi Islam and Sunni Islam you guys interpret Qur'an differently. i do not hold Qur'an as word of God because it is clearly just a book. so instead i pray to God that IT may give me Guidance and i can do the right thing. This is called Quaking: when one does not take a book as a idol. also called Iconoclast: when one gets rid of all idols( so called representors of God/gods). I dought myself and i dought the Qur'an. i do not dought God.
seek the truth by going through the clutter.

 

[Alla Prima]

no, this is complicated and this is what i am trying to say. an ordinary unbeliever is not a fasik.

i would come back for idoliaters and polytheists, i hope.

yes, you do not know who i am. but it still matters if i was honest or a liar. time is the most precious thing i have. to me, it worth spending my time for a honest person regardless what he believes or says.

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I do not think you are a liar. I just don't agree with the explanations you are giving me because they defy common sense and defy a common reading of the words in the book. I do not believe that the Unbeliever in the verses I quoted referred to these Fasiks.