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Islam, how much do you really know about it?

.lava

Veteran Member
I do not think you are a liar. I just don't agree with the explanations you are giving me because they defy common sense and defy a common reading of the words in the book. I do not believe that the Unbeliever in the verses I quoted referred to these Fasiks.

common sense? people can not grasp knowledge in short time. people can not reach right understanding without giving some effort. that's why common reading would only give shallow insight and therefor Islam would appear as if it was shallow. you're asking me about polytheists. i think polytheist people that Qur'an describes is a great example to show how your common reading would fail.

30 / AR RÛM - 32: Do not be one of those MUSHRIK (those who attribute a partner to Allah) since they split up their religion, and become Sects, and each party rejoices in the knowledge with it.

with common sense, common reading and of course by using straigth logic, could you please tell me if people who belong to sections were all polytheists then who's not polytheist in this world?

.
 

Alla Prima

Well-Known Member
common sense? people can not grasp knowledge in short time. people can not reach right understanding without giving some effort. that's why common reading would only give shallow insight and therefor Islam would appear as if it was shallow. you're asking me about polytheists. i think polytheist people that Qur'an describes is a great example to show how your common reading would fail.

30 / AR RÛM - 32: Do not be one of those MUSHRIK (those who attribute a partner to Allah) since they split up their religion, and become Sects, and each party rejoices in the knowledge with it.

with common sense, common reading and of course by using straigth logic, could you please tell me if people who belong to sections were all polytheists then who's not polytheist in this world?

.


It's really simply. A polytheist is one who believes in or worships more than one god.
 

.lava

Veteran Member
It's really simply. A polytheist is one who believes in or worships more than one god.

OK, it is not that simple. Alla Prima, i am not trying to teach Qur'an here. i am trying to make you see that you can not understand Qur'an if you did not know original text and what concepts it contains. polytheism is one of them. because, translators do not have a choice but to translate the word 'Mushrik' as 'Polytheist'. because in English, word that covers the meaning of 'mushrik' does not exist. you hear that? it does not exist.

.
 

pharon85

Member
Because you don't believe me when i tell you the fact that God wants all to confess they are Agnostic.
can you proof that

Yes, there is only one Qur'anic Islam but you see i have submitted to the will of God. if i was was speaking arabic i would be folower of Islam. but i talk English so i am follower of Submission. Between Sufi Islam and Sunni Islam you guys interpret Qur'an differently. i do not hold Qur'an as word of God because it is clearly just a book. so instead i pray to God that IT may give me Guidance and i can do the right thing. This is called Quaking: when one does not take a book as a idol. also called Iconoclast: when one gets rid of all idols( so called representors of God/gods). I dought myself and i dought the Qur'an. i do not dought God.
seek the truth by going through the clutter.

if we deal with chemistry book will it be different when you read it on arabic or in english
also you speak as you know islam well
can you tell me what is the difference between suni and sofi
 
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Alla Prima

Well-Known Member
OK, it is not that simple. Alla Prima, i am not trying to teach Qur'an here. i am trying to make you see that you can not understand Qur'an if you did not know original text and what concepts it contains. polytheism is one of them. because, translators do not have a choice but to translate the word 'Mushrik' as 'Polytheist'. because in English, word that covers the meaning of 'mushrik' does not exist. you hear that? it does not exist.

.

Those who "attribute a partner to Allah" is worshiping more than one god. Polytheist.
 

Alla Prima

Well-Known Member

A 'partner' to God would (by definition) necessarily be a god.


One can only view these verses as hatred towards Jews and Christians for their beliefs:

009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
 

GURSIKH

chardi kla
can you tell me what is the difference between suni and sofi


dear i can tell you the difference , i m from Punjab , the hub of Sufis . i love BULLEY SHAH JI , SHAH HUSSIAN JI , infact ONE SUFI SAINT BABA SHEIKH FARID JIS WRITING IS CONTAINED IN SIKH HOLY TEXT " GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI " if i post the writings of these saints here , these writings can offend you .:)
 

.lava

Veteran Member
A 'partner' to God would (by definition) necessarily be a god.


One can only view these verses as hatred towards Jews and Christians for their beliefs:

009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

your understanding of Mushirk is not same with Qur'an and you can not even admit your lack of knowledge about this. we passed FASIK, now we pass MUSHRIK and we would continue..right? one more concept and you'd put tasavvuf knowledge in trashbin once more, because you, as a non-Muslim know Qur'an much better than me.

OK then

bye

.
 

Alla Prima

Well-Known Member
The 'Kafir' is another much interpreted term. Not apparently of endearment however.

Kafir

Unbeliever. First applied to Meccans who refused submission to Islam, the term implies an active rejection of divine revelation. All unbelievers are thought to face eternal damnation in the afterlife. Although there is disagreement about whether Jews and Christians are unbelievers, they have generally received tolerant treatment from Muslim governments. Islamic fundamentalists in the twentieth century applied the term to other Muslims who did not adhere to their strict interpretations of the Quran.
http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e1229?_hi=0&_pos=9

Kafir (Arabic: ???? k?fir; plural ????? kuff?r) is an Arabic word meaning "rejecter" or "ingrate". In the Islamic doctrinal sense, the term refers to a person who does not recognize God (Allah) or the prophethood of Muhammad (i.e., any non-Muslim) or who hides, denies, or covers the "truth". In cultural terms, it is seen as a derogatory term[1] used to describe an unbeliever, non-Muslims, apostate from Islam and even between Muslims of different sects. It is usually translated into English as "infidel" or "unbeliever".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir

Kafir
Arabic: k?fir (sing.) kuff?r or k?fir?n or kafara (pl.)

In Islam, a derogatory designation of the infidel, the unbeliever or misbeliever. The word "kafir" has changed its actual meaning several times, from "obliterating, covering" to "ungrateful [to God]".
Depending on definition, a kafir can by any non-Muslim, or anyone not belonging to the Ahl al-Kitab (Muslims, Christians, Jews, Sabaeans or, possibly, Zoroastrian). In the latter case, anyone from the Buddhists, Hindus to Atheists are kafir.
A kafir is by definition not a person with another opinion than Islam, he or she is simply one who refuses the self-evident truth. His or her opinion is therefore only recognized for its lack of truthfulness, not worthy the attention of a Muslim.
In actual Muslim theology, there appears distinctions, ranging from very strict and condemnatory to very tolerant. Throughout Muslim history, there are more stories about acceptance from Muslim leaders and theologians than actual condemnation. In modern times, however, Muslim ideas have moved much in direction of strict and condemning.
It is not clear how Muslims shall deal with the kafirs; the Koran sura 60:8 seems to indicate that Muslims can tolerate non-Muslims as long as these do not fight against the religion of Islam.
A few passages of the Koran bring confusion into the understanding of the concept. In Koran 33:47 it is distinguished between "unbelievers" and "hypocrites" (Arabic: mun?fiq (sing.), munfiq?n (pl.)). A common Islamic categorization, understands the hypocrite to be one claiming to be a Muslim, but who is lying.
Koran sura 109, called The Misbelievers, calls the faith of the misbelievers a "religion", calling both Islam and the faith of the misbelievers "d?n".
There is in modern times a debate whether a kafir and a non-Muslim is the same. By this it is alleged that a kafir were only those who had the message of Islam in the time of Muhammad presented to them, but who rejected this. With this, the category of non-Muslims is not mentioned in the Koran, and the hard criticism then does not apply to them.http://looklex.com/e.o/kafir.htm



4.3 – Kafir (Non-Muslims)/Infidels
*
** The simple definition of a Kafir is, “someone who is not following every order of Allah”. The Koran gives us an insightful definition for non-Muslims, telling us the reason these people do not follow the laws of Allah is that:
“Those people who are of this belief or are follower of this belief that they receive only the immediate gains [2: 200].”
*
Types of non-Muslims
*
** Koran tells us about three kinds of non-Muslims, each with its respective attributes. The three kinds and its characteristics are:
*
i One group which rejects all of Koran
ii One group which accepts some and rejects some of the Koran
iii One group which on the outside accepts but in reality rejects Koran
*
4.3.1 – First Type of Kafir
*
** Non-Muslims of this category openly reject all of the teachings of Koran. Though in practice they might be following some principles of Koran not because Koran orders it but because they themselves have come upon the value of following these principles.
*
4.3.2 – Second Type of Kafir
*
** This group divides this world and the Hereafter into two different worlds and accordingly thinks and preaches that the gains of this world are achieved by some actions and Hereafter is gained by completely different deeds. This group also thinks that success in this world does not mean success in the next and failure in this world does not mean failure in next. For them, these two worlds are completely incompatible. While according to Koran if one is to succeed in the next world, they also have to be successful in this world too. And one will be successful in both worlds by following Koran.
** The other characteristic of this type is of a group which follows a part of Koran which suits them while the part of Koran which is against their lifestyle, leave them. Their thinking is that whatever they are following is enough to get them into Heaven, which of course is totally incorrect. To get into Heaven, one has to follow and act upon each and every word of Koran. For the people with such mentality, Allah exclaims:
“What! You have Eman on one portion of these Laws of universe and deny its second portion [2: 85].”
*
4.3.3 – Munafik: Third Type of Kafir
*
** Munafik or hypocrites are the worse of this group. They profess they are Muslim but their real intentions are to harm the Islamic State from within. In today’s context they can be called as spies, who penetrate into the public of Islamic State and cause damage from there. Unlike spies, a munafik might not be state sponsored and working against the Muslim nation because of personal reasons or because he does not believe in the teachings. The difference between their thoughts and actions is well captured by the ayah:
“They, with their tongue, say all that which is not in their hearts [3: 167].”
** Allah tells us about the goals of these people. These people soon create a group and start their intrigues in the form of a group, thus increasing the damage done to the Islamic Society, exponentially.
“They always talk about Kufr amongst themselves. Indeed they have reverted to Kufr after professing Islam outwardly. They devise ineffective plans against you. But when they are asked about this they swear by Allah that they have never done any such thing. They act maliciously towards the believers out of envy for what the Divine Order had bestowed upon them. If they repent even now it would be better for them but if they revert to their former way of life, Allah will chastise them with a grievous chastisement in this world as also in the hereafter. They shall not have on earth any friend or helper [9: 74].” http://www.geocities.com/subagh2003/articles/kafir
 

Alla Prima

Well-Known Member
your understanding of Mushirk is not same with Qur'an and you can not even admit your lack of knowledge about this.

I just don't agree with your rigid interpretation. This from Wikipedia:


Shirk (Arabic: ????) is the Islamic concept of the sin of polytheism specifically, but in a more general way refers to worshipping other than Allah, associating partners with him, giving his characteristics to others beside him, or not believing in his characteristics. Within Islam, Major Shirk is a forgivable sin if one repents from it while one is alive, but according to Islamic texts, anyone who dies upon this sin will never enter paradise. It is the vice that is opposed to the virtue of tawhid, literally "declaring [that which is] one", often translated into the English term monotheism. [1]
 

Alla Prima

Well-Known Member
Here's an interesting article

Are Christians 'Mushrik' (Polytheists) or 'Kaafirs' (Rejecters)?

Should Christians be considered as Mushrik because they worship the person of Jesus Christ, and there is no forgiveness for that as Allah told us [in the Qur’an]. Or Kaafir because Allah tells us that everyone who attributes to god a son is a Kaafir.

Reply

Before I answer your specific question, it would be appropriate to first take a close look at the two terms “Mushrik” and “Kaafir”, as only after that can we say whether the Christians, Jews or adherents of any other religion fall in these categories or not.

Let us first take the term “Kaafir”. “Kaafir” in the Arabic language means “rejecter”. The term “Kaafir”, normally taken to be synonymous with “non-Muslim” or “non-believer” is quite different from the two terms. A “non-Muslim”, obviously, is a person who does not adhere to the Muslim faith. Thus, all those who do not ascribe to the Muslim faith are “non-Muslims”. A “non-believer”, generally used for a person who does not believe in God and the Day of Judgment.

I take it 'non-believer' and 'unbeliever' are one in the same.


“Kaafir”, on the other hand, is a person who knowingly rejects the truth. A person may not believe in some ‘truth’ for a number of reasons. For instance, he may not be fully convinced of some aspect of that ‘truth’ or he may have some doubts in his mind regarding that truth.

This doesn't make sense. If someone doesn't accept the truth because he has doubts about it's validity as a truth then he never accepted it as truth.

However, if all doubts are removed from his mind and he becomes fully convinced of that truth, yet he persists in not accepting it or persists in ascribing to a wrong belief after becoming certain of its incorrectness, he then becomes a “Kaafir” and is no longer just a “non-Muslim” or a “non-believer”.

This is beyond stupid. I fail to see how it is possible that one can accept a truth as truth yet reject it as truth.

In other words, all those people who persist in not accepting Islam after being fully convinced that Islam is the true religion of the Almighty or persist in ascribing to a false belief after being convinced of its incorrectness are “Kaafirs” or rejecters of the truth. All others for our purposes are “non-Muslims” or “non-believers”.

This is a lot of baloney as far as I'm concerned. I believe someone is trying to re-write definitions. :rolleyes:

This explanation, if considered closely, should clarify the fact that we cannot call anyone a “Kaafir” unless we have absolute knowledge of the reasons for his rejection of faith (or Islam), which we do not possess. Thus, for the purpose of this world, we should not call anyone a “Kaafir”. It is only God, Who with His absolute knowledge can declare someone a “Kaafir”. No one besides God possesses the knowledge that is essential to declare someone a “Kaafir”.

If someone rejects a so called truth it is because he doesn't believe it's a truth.

Thus, we know on the basis of God’s declaration in the Qur’an that the Jews and the Christians (and those ascribing to other faiths) during the time of the Prophet (pbuh) refused to believe in the Prophet (pbuh) even after being fully convinced of his prophethood and were therefore termed “Kaafir” by the Almighty.

Is that so. Hmmm....

As far as the Jews and the Christians of later times are concerned, we do not have adequate knowledge of the reasons for their rejection to term them “Kaafir”.

Bet I know. They thought it a bunch of hooey.

God, on the Day of Judgment, shall give the decision regarding these Jews and Christians. Those, among them, who refused to accept Islam and the prophethood of Mohammed (pbuh), although they were fully convinced of it being the truth, shall stand in the category of “Kaafirs” on the Day of Judgment.

This defies logic. Fully convinced yet they reject it. I think someone is wishful thinking.

The term “Mushrik”, like the term “Kaafir” has also been slightly misused. It is not just ascribing to a polytheistic belief that makes a person a “Mushrik”. According to the Qur’an, “Mushrik” is one who ascribes partners to God. Christians, though ascribe to a polytheistic belief, do not ascribe partners to God. They believe that there is only one god and He does not have any partners.

Then it's not a polytheistic belief.

Yet they ascribe to a belief, which in the eyes of the Muslims and according to the Qur’an is a polytheistic belief. Christians, according to the Qur’an, would have been called “Mushrik” had they believed that ascribing a son to God is a polytheistic belief and would still have held that belief.

So they would be polytheists if they believed they were polytheists. Curiouser and curiouser.

The above should also explain why the Qur’an, even though it has pointed out that the Jews and the Christians of the times of the Prophet (pbuh) ascribe to some polytheistic beliefs has not addressed them as “Mushrik”. The Qur’an has only addressed the Banu-Ishmael and other Arab polytheists who clearly ascribed to polytheism by the term “Mushrik” (as should be clear from Al-Baqarah 2: 105, Aal Imraan 3: 67, Surah Al-Taubah 9: 1 – 33, Al-Bayyinah 98: 1).

By this reasoning Hindus, Wicca, Shinto and traditional African religions are polytheistic. I agree.

In the light of the above explanation, in my opinion, the Christian should not be called “Mushrik” or “Kaafir”.

According to above explanation I doubt anyone should be called a Kaafir.

We may say that Christians ascribe to polytheistic beliefs but should not call them polytheists, as the Qur’an has not called them polytheists. Likewise, we can call them “non-Muslims”, but should not call them “Kaafir”, as we do not know who among them has knowingly rejected Islam and who has not accepted Islam because he was not convinced of it being the final truth from God.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/ro/or-011.htm

Doesn't make any sense but it's a pretty picture.
 

Alla Prima

Well-Known Member
some times i don't think you even read
as i say before , believers what do they believe?
they believe in god the only, the creator
so believing in any thing else make them not submitted to god
and for the hundred time when we say islam that include all religions and prophets because god sent one religion to earth the aim of it is worshiping the only god
all prophets came to say that ,worship the only god
so any one believe that god is the only ,the creator is amoslem which mean submitted to god
and every one is born submitted to god then he chose his way

I don't submit to any god so that makes me an 'unbeliever' and subject to denigration and spiritual assault by Islam.

And you may have your hopes a bit high for the Christians. I don't they like their god being one with yours. :no:
 

pharon85

Member
dear i can tell you the difference , i m from Punjab , the hub of Sufis . i love BULLEY SHAH JI , SHAH HUSSIAN JI , infact ONE SUFI SAINT BABA SHEIKH FARID JIS WRITING IS CONTAINED IN SIKH HOLY TEXT " GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI " if i post the writings of these saints here , these writings can offend you .:)
dear i know the different i just wanted him who claim he know mush about islam to tell the difference
also in islam there is no thing called saint
and about what offend ,that is human writing so any human can write what ever he want
 

.lava

Veteran Member
dear i know the different i just wanted him who claim he know mush about islam to tell the difference
also in islam there is no thing called saint
and about what offend ,that is human writing so any human can write what ever he want

dear Pharon85, there are saints in Islam too but Qur'an calls them 'Evliya'. Evliya is the plural of the word Veli.

we know Sufism as living Qur'an. but in some cultures Sufism is obviously left the right path and became corrupted. there are people who think that after reaching certain point, peple would not be obligated following commands of God. a Muslim would know Prophets of Allah were the highest among humanity. among Prophets Mohammad (PBUH) was the greatest. even though he was surpreme, he was still obligated to follow commands of Allah. as long as you live in this world, you are obligated to continue practices as Allah commanded. long story short, Sufism we know is not the same Sufism i see in India. if one is Evliya/Veli/friend of Allah, these daily practices of Islam would be like 'food' for him. like a person who must drink water when thirsty, like a person who needs to eat when he is hungry...daily practices of Islam would be even more necessary for a Muslim.
he would suffer if he skip even just one salaat. so those who left practices of Islam and called themselves enlightened Sufis, unfortunately fooled themselves. we know that even Prophets did not have such a permission.

.
 

pharon85

Member
dear Pharon85, there are saints in Islam too but Qur'an calls them 'Evliya'. Evliya is the plural of the word Veli.

we know Sufism as living Qur'an. but in some cultures Sufism is obviously left the right path and became corrupted. there are people who think that after reaching certain point, peple would not be obligated following commands of God. a Muslim would know Prophets of Allah were the highest among humanity. among Prophets Mohammad (PBUH) was the greatest. even though he was surpreme, he was still obligated to follow commands of Allah. as long as you live in this world, you are obligated to continue practices as Allah commanded. long story short, Sufism we know is not the same Sufism i see in India. if one is Evliya/Veli/friend of Allah, these daily practices of Islam would be like 'food' for him. like a person who must drink water when thirsty, like a person who needs to eat when he is hungry...daily practices of Islam would be even more necessary for a Muslim.
he would suffer if he skip even just one salaat. so those who left practices of Islam and called themselves enlightened Sufis, unfortunately fooled themselves. we know that even Prophets did not have such a permission.

.
dear lava
there are big different between saint and awlia allah
people hallow who they call them saints
when god call some people awlia allah that is some thing between god and them
you can respect that man because he is good one but in islam there are no thing called hallow for man
that is what is sufism do
they hallow every one they think he is one of awlia allah
and that lead them away from islam
i know sufism in india is different that is because they mix with spiritual actions in the old civilizations in india
but here you can find people who belong to sufism do like other moslems in every thing but they hallow any one who they think he is from awlia alah and celebrate with birth day with actions opposite god orders
go on brother
 

pharon85

Member
I don't submit to any god so that makes me an 'unbeliever' and subject to denigration and spiritual assault by Islam.

And you may have your hopes a bit high for the Christians. I don't they like their god being one with yours. :no:
islam is about submitting to god
and islam don't denigrate any one
you don't believe that there are a god
as you like that is what islam say
but when you are submitted to god you are under his merci ,when you are a non beliver there will be no merci at all for you
in quran god say any thing can be forgiven except that
can't you say may be they are right
you say i don't submit to any god
what will happen if there are one ?
what will you say when you meet him?
you don't care ,it is ok
in quran god didn't assault non belivers of him
god promised them with punishment
that is it
what you see it as assault is just describing and definitions of them because there are many types
some don't believe with god at all, some believe but they modified what god sent them,some say we believe but inside themselves they say we are not
some believe with god but they gave god some partners
in quran you can find all that types and promise with punishment
so if you are right and there are no god no thing will happen for believers or non believers because there are no one can gave them a punish or reward
so your discussion here will be with no meaning because we will be equal at the end
but if there are god and there are punishment where do you think non believers will be ???????????????????
if it is like that you are jumbling and there are a high risk
 
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pharon85

Member
the submission is not just accepting god
also it is following god orders
if some one is submitted but he cheat or steal or doing any thing god order not to do
he will be punish
so submission is not an end it is just the beginning
 
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