Islam rejects meritocracies?

[Jabar]

@icehorse Can you please give me verses that Qur'an describes the disbelievers this way? I believe this will make the process more efficient and easier which in turn allowing me to answer this question with clarification.

 

[icehorse]

Hi Jabar,

So who decides the actual meaning? Aren't there often problems when two people BOTH think they know the "actual meaning" and they disagree?

 

[icehorse]

Hi Jabar,

I'm going to summarize these verses, okay?

1:7 Allah is forever angry with the Jews and Christians
2:6 - 2:10 - Allah has covered the eyes and ears of non-believers and theirs will be a great torment, they are diseased
2:12 - nonbelievers make mischief
2:13 - nonbelievers are fools
2:14 - nonbelievers are hypocrites
2:15 - Allah mocks nonbelievers
2:17 - 2:18 - Allah took away their light, they are deaf, dumb and blind
2:24 - hell is prepared for the non-believers
2:26 - allah misleads non-believers
2:39 - nonbelievers will abide in hell forever

==

Oh and here's a contradiction within the first to Surahs:

1:7 - Allah is forever angry with Jews and Christians
2:62 - Jews and Christians... shall have their reward with the lord.

So, that just in the first few pages. There are literally hundreds more examples.

 

[Jabar]

@icehorse The person with the translation that is most accurate to what Allah said which is in Arabic.

 

[Jabar]

@icehorse
1:7 of Qur'an:
The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.
I do not understand how this talks about that.
2:6-2:10 of Qur'an
Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.
I do not get where you are getting these translations from, but if you are doing this on purpose i do not think it is a good idea.
2:12 of Qur'an:
Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not.
Once again same thing
2:13 of Qur'an:
And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?" Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know [it] not.

 

[icehorse]

Jabar,

As I said earlier - I'm not copying directly from my the translated Quran I use. I'm summarizing the verses. Can you not check your translation if you think my summaries are wrong?

Now if you're saying that the ONLY people who can properly understand the Quran is those who understand ancient Arabic, then I think you insult all of the Islamic scholars who have devoted their professional lives to understanding the Arabic and making faithful translations.

 

[Jabar]

@icehorse Let me give you advice. 2:39 and 2:62 ''contradict'' each other.

 

[Jabar]

@icehorse
Qur'an 2:62:
Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

The summaries you make are vague and are misconceptions made by yourself. Btw, this verse talks about the Jews, Christians, before prophet muhammad, and believed in Allah S.W.A.T, last day and did righteousness.

It is pathetic that people in modern society keep pointing this out. Is it that they are ignorant or arrogant?

 

[Jabar]

Jabar,

As I said earlier - I'm not copying directly from my the translated Quran I use. I'm summarizing the verses. Can you not check your translation if you think my summaries are wrong?

Now if you're saying that the ONLY people who can properly understand the Quran is those who understand ancient Arabic, then I think you insult all of the Islamic scholars who have devoted their professional lives to understanding the Arabic and making faithful translations.

It is if they know the TRUE meaning of what Allah said, in the right CONTEXT and everything. It is not relevant how much devotion they have put in terms of this conversation, because if it is giving the false meaning then it is not relevant. It has to have the TRUE meaning of what God said and the message i am giving is what Allah actually meant in the Qur'an.

You have failed trying to pick out this so called contradiction.

 

[icehorse]

Jabar,

How do YOU know the true meaning?

 

[Jabar]

Jabar,

How do YOU know the true meaning?

Exactly what i do is:
1. By going on the certain chapter and verse in the Qur'an, you can go on http://quran.com/
2. Going through each letter as it is in the Qur'an and basically soliloquizing. Seeing what CONTEXT it is in.
3. Comprehend the WHOLE verse, and what is actually happening.
4. This gives the TRUE meaning


Let me give you an example of what you do:

1. Google contradictions, o look i found one.
2. Go to translations of Qur'an, see look it says that see.
3. Acquire the misconception.

P.S. It is much easier than what i typed here. Basically, you just have to comprehend it properly in the correct context, correct translation that matches the language it is written in which is Arabic. Looking at the actual Arabic translation, helps with the misconceptions you are making. However, if the translations made by people, match the actual meaning of the Arabic translation in English then it is the correct meaning of what God revealed.

 

[Jabar]

@icehorse Besides, i have proved your ''contradiction'' to not be one.

 

[firedragon]

All right then. As I understand it, firedragon and/or Jabar are asking us to find contradictions in the Quran:

How about we just start with one, "equality":

FD offered "equality" as a lesson that Islam teaches. So does being a dhimmi seem like equality? Not to me it doesn't. It sounds like being a second class citizen, beneath all Muslims. How about being a woman in an Islamic society? Well, your Muslim husband is told that he is free to "plow" you whenever he wants. This strikes me as spousal abuse, not very equal. How about those pesky non-believers? The Quran criticizes non-believers over 500 times. Non-believers are called pigs and monkeys. Muslims are advised that non-believers are liars, and should not be befriended. Hmmm, not very equal in my book.

(As a prediction, the way this will go is that I will be asked to cite specific verses. When I do that, I will be told that I have misinterpreted these verses. I will point out that I'm simply reading translations created by extremely well regarded Islamic scholars. Then I'll probably be told that I haven't taken the verses in the correct historical context. To which I'll reply that I was told that Muslims hold that the Quran is perfect and timeless. To which... well we'll see what happens.)

I didn't speak of contradictions Ice. When you asked me what would be the correct one if you find contradicting verses to the good teachings I posted, I replied that you would find "contradistinctions" not contradictions.

See. You have spoken dhimmi - not in the Quran, you have spoken of Muslim woman society - nothing to do with Quran. Why is that? When you tell me about verses that go against verses I showed you, why would you speak of society and extra quranic stuff?

Now you are speaking of 500 verses. Yes I've seen that website.

Quran is direct communication. When a Muslim reads it a must think it's speaking to him. Any reader. Why is it that when you read it that only the non believer verses refer to you? Everything refers to the reader. Not to judge others. To judge yourself.

See if you can show me verses that opposes the post in concern, otherwise it's just baseless discourse.

 

[Augustus]

Well you hedged on the question about whether we have a problem.

I said there is a problem with extremism, and would like to see some evidence regarding other things before jumping to conclusions.

If you consider that 'hedging' it seems you believe identifying the nature of the the problem to be superfluous as you have already decided on the answer.

I see it as important that you understand extremism in general, before looking at Islamic extremism.
Immigration in general, before Muslim immigration.
Problems in disadvantaged areas before problems in Muslim disadvantaged areas.

Agree?

As far as the "us vs. them" situation, let me put it to you this way. In politics, we ALWAYS create "us vs. them" situations. Correct? Well guess what, Islam IS a political construct. Muslims use Islam's religious facet as a way to cover for its political aspirations, but make no mistake, Islam IS politics.

So we should make no attempt to differentiate between extreme elements and average Muslims? 'Muslims' are not Us, only Them?

Anyway, you are back to takfir-ing Muslims who are not sufficiently hardline.

As for 1st gen. vs. 2nd gen. there is one way to look at this situation that might be very natural: 1st gen. immigrants have direct experience with the differences between where they came from, and their host country. Subsequent generations have only mythology about where their parents or grandparents came from, and such mythology is often painted favorably and inaccurately. You know "the good old days back in Morocco".

I left that bit in because I was surprised and it went against what I'd based some previous assumptions on. I'd assumed the 2nd gen figure would be higher.

The diversity of the stats doesn't seem to support your lack of meritocracy/sense of entitlement hypothesis though.

You also didn't answer: what is the difference between an unevidenced theory and an assertion?

 

[LuisDantas]

Quran is direct communication. When a Muslim reads it a must think it's speaking to him. Any reader. Why is it that when you read it that only the non believer verses refer to you? Everything refers to the reader. Not to judge others. To judge yourself.

Maybe the Quran does not want to be believed by most people, then?

Or perhaps it is simply scripture, and any actual religious insights will exist mostly on the minds and hearts of people, as expected?

 

[firedragon]

Maybe the Quran does not want to be believed by most people, then?

Or perhaps it is simply scripture, and any actual religious insights will exist mostly on the minds and hearts of people, as expected?

It's not the Quran, it's the people who read it who want to deal superior or inferior.

It is scripture, it contains the religious insights.

Morals are what you get in people's minds and hearts. If not atheists will not have morals. But they do. All are born with human morals, Quran has guidance and assurance.

Just that the reader must take it holistically. And for yourself first. Don't judge others. Judge yourself.

 

[Jabar]

@firedragon I would have to agree 100% upon what you said.

 

[icehorse]

Hi firedragon -

I did not go to a website. I reread a few pages from the Quran myself. Do not hint that I am lying, I most certainly am not. As I understand Islam, it is wrong of you to insinuate that I've lied.

Jabar - what exactly do you think you proved here? I must have missed something, because I haven't seen where you proved anything? thanks

 

[LuisDantas]

It's not the Quran, it's the people who read it who want to deal superior or inferior.

Not sure what you mean. Does it connect to the appeal to read the Quran neutrally that I sometimes find?

It is scripture, it contains the religious insights.

Scripture is just text. Under the correct circunstances it may be an useful aid for religious insight, but its importance is always limited and conditioned by the specific wisdom and guidance of the student.

Morals are what you get in people's minds and hearts. If not atheists will not have morals. But they do. All are born with human morals,

Fair enough.

Quran has guidance and assurance.

Just that the reader must take it holistically. And for yourself first. Don't judge others. Judge yourself.

Apparently some people find that to work better for them than others.

 

[Jabar]

• @icehorse I proved your contradiction wrong. Allah was talking about the Christians and Jews that believed in accordance to Islamic beliefs at the time where prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was not present.