Islam: Religion of Peace or Religion for War?

[Marsh]

ISIS do not follow the Qur'an you know?

Jabar, they do follow the Koran, this is the whole problem. Have a look at the article in the Atlantic. It will all be explained to you.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Conservative Muslims don't like acknowledging that the various Islamist terror groups are true Muslims. You won't look at the writing of apostates who declare this, so have a look instead at the writing of a secular Muslim: read Maajid Hawaz. The only book of his I've read to date is Islam and the Future of Tolerance. I was given it for Christmas. Hawaz, who remains a Muslim, states that until moderate Muslims acknowledge that the terrorists are practicing Islam, they will not face up to the problems within Islam that are leading to extremism. Google him.

You keep stating these people who have had death threats imposed on them. Stop talking about the people. I can find many Christians the same.

Why don't you want to hear any mention of the many people who have been threatened with death by fatwas? I am simply pointing out how common this has become. Muslims seem to be very easily offended. Look at the riots a single cartoon can inflame. You might argue that the attack on Charlie Hebdo was carried out by a handful of extremists who were not truly Muslim, but I would argue it was their Muslim sensibilities that were offended, launching them on the attack. Also, I haven't heard of a single instance of Christians calling for atheists to be murdered. However, such incidents are common throughout the Islamic world.

You should look at the Qur'an and not a man-made Ant-Islamic delusional resource.

The books I've recommended were written by people raised within Islam. They are well informed, smart individuals, who understand Islam from the inside, and they have left the religion, for various reason. Whatever else they may be, they are not delusional, but you will never learn that if you don't examine what they are saying.

 

[Marsh]

I'd like to correct you on a point you made above... Before Muhammad was recognized as a Prophet He herded sheep and conveyed caravans at least once in Syria... His "occupation" was not raiding caravans.

Always happy to be corrected. I'll have to revisit my source (Ibn Warraq) and see how I got that idea.

 

[LuisDantas]

Not really.

Some believe, some do not.

In reality, they are not true Muslims, but wrongdoers who call themselves Muslims.

I am right because killing innocent people is prohibited.

Do you think they are sincere?

 

[Sapiens]

Death? Where in the Qur'an does it say that.

You are being like Marsh.

You cannot kill people for being disbelievers.

You can however defend your religion and spread the message.

Common misconceptions made by people.

Barbara Zolner (31 October 2008). The Muslim Brotherhood: Hasan Al-Hudaybi and Ideology. Routledge. p. 87. ISBN 978-1-134-07767-0. Retrieved 24 December 2013. disagrees with you.

WikiIslam, the online resource on Islam reads: "The punishment for apostasy as prescribed by Prophet Muhammad is death."

It has been a long time since the Archbishop of Canterbury put out a contract on a novelist or the Pope suggested a hit on a cartoonist.

Right peaceable folks y'all got there.

 

[Augustus]

The punishment for apostasy as prescribed by Prophet Muhammad is death."

Technically it should be "The punishment for apostasy as prescribed by 9th C Muslim jurists, and based on traditions that are likely 8th/9th C inventions, is death".

 

[Aquitaine]

Islam is a religion of Peace.

It is also a religion of living this complete tested life.

Peace is one of the things in there.

You're blowing your own trumpet when you, as a muslim, claim that your religion is a "religion of peace".
Islam is the same as every other religion in that it just is, and it can be judged on the actions of its followers.
The "religion of peace" line is only ever used by fellow muslims, or non-muslims trying to earn favour with Saudi Arabia.

 

[Aquitaine]

Alright, I would agree with you that Islam is not a religion of peace. Is the Koran a handbook for world conquest and would you call ISIS a death cult? More importantly, would you call ISIS Islamic?

I haven't read the Koran, so I can't really pass judgement. Though there are some verses in it which I find disturbing.
I would call ISIS a death-cult.
I would say ISIS has drawn some of its inspiration and "justification" through extremist interpretation of Islam.

 

[Jabar]

Jabar, they do follow the Koran, this is the whole problem. Have a look at the article in the Atlantic. It will all be explained to you.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Conservative Muslims don't like acknowledging that the various Islamist terror groups are true Muslims. You won't look at the writing of apostates who declare this, so have a look instead at the writing of a secular Muslim: read Maajid Hawaz. The only book of his I've read to date is Islam and the Future of Tolerance. I was given it for Christmas. Hawaz, who remains a Muslim, states that until moderate Muslims acknowledge that the terrorists are practicing Islam, they will not face up to the problems within Islam that are leading to extremism. Google him.


Why don't you want to hear any mention of the many people who have been threatened with death by fatwas? I am simply pointing out how common this has become. Muslims seem to be very easily offended. Look at the riots a single cartoon can inflame. You might argue that the attack on Charlie Hebdo was carried out by a handful of extremists who were not truly Muslim, but I would argue it was their Muslim sensibilities that were offended, launching them on the attack. Also, I haven't heard of a single instance of Christians calling for atheists to be murdered. However, such incidents are common throughout the Islamic world.


The books I've recommended were written by people raised within Islam. They are well informed, smart individuals, who understand Islam from the inside, and they have left the religion, for various reason. Whatever else they may be, they are not delusional, but you will never learn that if you don't examine what they are saying.

They do not follow the Qur'an. Does Qur'an say go kill innocent people, no!

 

[Jabar]

You're blowing your own trumpet when you, as a muslim, claim that your religion is a "religion of peace".
Islam is the same as every other religion in that it just is, and it can be judged on the actions of its followers.
The "religion of peace" line is only ever used by fellow muslims, or non-muslims trying to earn favour with Saudi Arabia.

No, most Muslims believe it to be a religion of peace.


I would agree that people wrongly interpret the Qur'an, but overall it is a religion of peace, and also is self-defense which is logic.

 

[Pastek]

Jabar, they do follow the Koran, this is the whole problem. Have a look at the article in the Atlantic. It will all be explained to you.

I always find it facinating when people judge Islam according to Daesh and how they say they are following the Prophet.
So billions of muslims are wrong except Al Quaida, Daesh etc who follow the perfect Islam.

As an atheist, I wouldn't risk ever travelling to an Islamic country.

Seriously ? You don't risk anything, people don't ask you about your faith, and even if they did they won't kill you.

 

[Aquitaine]

No, most Muslims believe it to be a religion of peace.


I would agree that people wrongly interpret the Qur'an, but overall it is a religion of peace, and also is self-defense which is logic.

Of course most muslims believe Islam to be a religion of peace, that is exactly what I was saying.
But muslims referring to their own faith as "the religion of peace" is a bit like North Koreans referring to their country as a "glorious people's republic", or Kim Jon Un referring to himself as a "glorious leader".

Out of curiosity, do you consider the Ottoman Empire Islamic?

 

[Jabar]

Of course most muslims believe Islam to be a religion of peace, that is exactly what I was saying.
But muslims referring to their own faith as "the religion of peace" is a bit like North Koreans referring to their country as a "glorious people's republic", or Kim Jon Un referring to himself as a "glorious leader".

Out of curiosity, do you consider the Ottoman Empire Islamic?

If you mean it is only a religion of peace then yes i would agree that it is not just that, but it still promotes peace.

If Ottomon Empire fits into everything the Qur'an says then yes, if not then not exactly.

 

[Marsh]

They do not follow the Qur'an. Does Qur'an say go kill innocent people, no!

The people they kill they judge not to be innocent, and that judgement is based upon the Koran, and apparently the Hadeth as well.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Islam may have a chance for real progress if there is a reformation. Islam badly needs a Martin Luther to "de-fang" and reform the radicals. But I am a pessimist. Any potential Muslim theologian who wants to pursue liberal reforms will end up in prison or worse. The current Islamic atmosphere is fetid and intolerant. Any dissident voices are squelched immediately.

The last thing Islam needs is its own Reformation (I understand you probably mean something different to me since I've capitalised my use of the word). That led to centuries of conflict in the Christian world. What Islam really needs is its own Enlightenment - when Muslims stop using the dictats of the Quran, ahadith and Islamic scholars as the foundation for their countries' laws and start putting distance between these things & governance on a national & local level.

Hell, Islam has its own reform movement - Ahmadi Islam. The only problem is the Ahmadis are trying to reform a religion while clinging to the notion that Islam is the perfect and complete religion. They're wilfully blind to the problems inherent to Islam such as Muhammad's violent past and rather than come to terms with it and accept that it forms the basis for violent Islamism even today, they fall into the same trap as mainstream Muslims: they sweep Muhammad's military career under the rug and pretend he was never violent, despite the ahadith saying he was.

 

[Aquitaine]

If you mean it is only a religion of peace then yes i would agree that it is not just that, but it still promotes peace.

If Ottomon Empire fits into everything the Qur'an says then yes, if not then not exactly.

No, what I'm saying is that when muslims refer to their own religion as "the religion of peace" they are indulging in self-congratulation. Of course they're going to say Islam is a religion of peace: it's there religion. It is meaningless to non-muslims when muslims say this.

In your opinion, did the Ottoman Empire fit in to what the koran says?

 

[Jabar]

The people they kill they judge not to be innocent, and that judgement is based upon the Koran, and apparently the Hadeth as well.

Show me where.

 

[Aquitaine]

The last thing Islam needs is its own Reformation (I understand you probably mean something different to me since I've capitalised my use of the word). That led to centuries of conflict in the Christian world. What Islam really needs is its own Enlightenment - when Muslims stop using the dictats of the Quran, ahadith and Islamic scholars as the foundation for their countries' laws and start putting distance between these things & governance on a national & local level.

Hell, Islam has its own reform movement - Ahmadi Islam. The only problem is the Ahmadis are trying to reform a religion while clinging to the notion that Islam is the perfect and complete religion. They're wilfully blind to the problems inherent to Islam such as Muhammad's violent past and rather than come to terms with it and accept that it forms the basis for violent Islamism even today, they fall into the same trap as mainstream Muslims: they sweep Muhammad's military career under the rug and pretend he was never violent, despite the ahadith saying he was.

But then they'll just pick and choose which hadiths are "valid", and all the ones confirming his violence will be deemed as invalid.

 

[Jabar]

No, what I'm saying is that when muslims refer to their own religion as "the religion of peace" they are indulging in self-congratulation. Of course they're going to say Islam is a religion of peace: it's there religion. It is meaningless to non-muslims when muslims say this.

In your opinion, did the Ottoman Empire fit in to what the koran says?

Well i agree.

I do not really have knowledge on the Ottoman Empire, so i cannot provide an answer.

 

[Jabar]

 

[Aquitaine]

Well i agree.

I do not really have knowledge on the Ottoman Empire, so i cannot provide an answer.

Fair enough. They were arguably the mightiest Islamic empire, but they were hardly peaceful or interested only in self defense.