Islamic Justice: girl lashed for being raped; rapist pardoned

[Quagmire]

As a non-Christian, I would not have any emotive response beyond revulsion at the fact.

Emotional responses are generally the problem, John.

I would not be left thinking 'This is typical of Christian childcare'; rather, I would be thinking 'This is the kind of thing people calling themselves Christians can end up doing'.

I think it would be more accurate to say: "This is the kind of thing opportunistic people can use religion to justify". What I'm suggesting is that the agenda comes before the profession of faith, not as the result of.

Quagmire, we are not very far apart in our worldviews, I think. If the facts of the story are correct, it is a horrific injustice

I don't think anyone's trying to deny that.

that, whether you like it or not, was justified by local application of Islamic law.

If "local (Bangladesh) application of" were included in the title before "Islamic Law" the implications would have been completely different; it would have stood as an allegation against a government and the way it interprets (or misinterprets) it's official religion.

As it is it's an unfair indictment against Islam as a whole. Unless there's actually something in the Quran that says a rape victim should be flogged and her attacker should go free, then Islam itself isn't to blame here.

If that is so, ought not the law at least be clarified?

Unfortunately clarification of the law often runs counter to the interests of the people who are using it to justify their own agendas, whether we're talking about people professing to follow it or the people who are trying to discredit it.

Is there no room for advancement here?

On both sides.

 

[gnostic]

That's an interesting perspective, but I think you might be confusing the Enlightenment with the Renaissance. The Renaissance came from Italian trade during the Crusades, but the Enlightenment was a Northwestern European happening, wasn't it?

Britain, France, Prussia.

I remembered that Frederick the Great (of Prussia, of the mid- or second half of the 18th century) accepted the Age of Enlightenment, separating religion from state. This is earlier than the French Revolution.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

ALL MUSLIMS practice honour killings since ANCIENT TIMES ,and be so certain of himself unless he's making this up..

And I didn't say that.

BUT, as you say Muslim women aren't used to committing adultery...

They aren't used to a lot of things either in many Muslim countries (Iran, Iraq, Afganistan, Pakistan, Jordan) - things like free speech, wearing Western clothes, getting an education, etc.

 

[maro]

BUT, as you say Muslim women aren't used to committing adultery...

They aren't used to a lot of things either in many Muslim countries (Iran, Iraq, Afganistan, Pakistan, Jordan) - things like free speech, wearing Western clothes, getting an education, etc.

why do you assume that muslim women want to practice adultery or wear western clothes ?!!! THEY don't ,because they respect their own religion and identity

As for free speech and education , the MAJORITY of muslim women have them...and still we need more ,i admit.....however ,we can stand up for ourselves and our sisters...we don't need a liberator to *liberate* us from our religion and our hijab and make us dress in a fashionable western style !!!

 

[Autodidact]

what do you expect to hear exactly? your title on its own is an insult to my path and my religion. maybe i should just stop expecting people to be aware of certain things. yea..right, Islamic justice punishing rape crime and this is yours, so THANK YOU!



.

I don't understand. Are you saying this event didn't happen, or the people who did it aren't Muslims administering Islamic Justice, or that these actions are not Islamic, or what? I take it you disagree with the Fatwa of the elders?

 

[dust1n]

Not to mention Roman, Chinese, and Indian -- in fact, just about every culture and society prior to the European Enlightenment.

You are right. For some reason, why someone criticizes Muslim atrocities, I feel the urge to match it with Christian atrocities, but you are right. Japan had a bad rep to. Spain, Britain, etc. Everyone is guilty.

 

[Autodidact]

I'd like to make a point. I think lava has a reasonable point here, that the title insinuates something that may too generalistic. On the other hand, I've never know Autodidact to purposely bear false witness about others, so I suspect it was an oversight in the way she worded the title. Of course I'm not trying to speak for her - it's just that I think some people could rightfully be offended here, and I don't think Auto intended for it.

If I'm wrong and putting words into Auto's mouth, I apologize, and please feel free to tell me to mind my own beezwax.

Muslim elders in the village issued a fatwa insisting that the girl be kept in isolation until her family agreed to corporal punishment.Her rapist was pardoned by the elders.

The impression I get is that in this village the justice system is delegated to village elders to administer Islamic law, as they see it. My question is, do the Muslims here agree that this is Islamic Justice? If not, why not?

 

[dust1n]

I don't understand. Are you saying this event didn't happen, or the people who did it aren't Muslims administering Islamic Justice, or that these actions are not Islamic, or what? I take it you disagree with the Fatwa of the elders?

Well apparently the Catholic church during the Dark Ages weren't "Christian" neither.

 

[Autodidact]

Look at the title of this thread; "Islamic Justice". The first two words of the title are telling you what conclusions to come to, and where to lay the blame, before you even get into the text.

It would be the same thing if someone created a thread about the ritual exorcisms being performed by the Pentecostal churches in Nigeria that have left dozens of children dead, disfigured, or crippled, and titled it: "Typical Christian Childcare".

Do you see the problem now?

Not really, although there is a relationship. Here, the state is administering justice by delegating that function to local village councils, and here you see the result. If Muslims here think that's not a good system, they should say so.

But yes, there is a relationship between superstitious thinking and child abuse in the Nigerian case.

 

[Autodidact]

and that's why i think this thread is garbage that doesn't worth a reply ,sister

It seems to me that if Muslims don't agree with actions like this, and remain silent about it, they are in effect condoning it. I can't assume what your views are, unless you tell us. So far not a single Muslim has condemned the actions of this council, only my actions in bringing them to light.

 

[Autodidact]

I think the implication of the title is that this is characteristic of Islam rather than, say, characteristic of the Bangladeshi.

Well I'm sure I don't know, and if this is a Bangladeshi thing rather than a Muslim thing, why don't the Muslims here say so?

 

[Autodidact]

I think the implication of the title is that this is characteristic of Islam rather than, say, characteristic of the Bangladeshi.

Ok then, is this better: "Christian Childcare: Ritual exorcisms being performed by the Pentecostal churches in Nigeria Leave dozens of children dead, disfigured, or crippled".

Again: the title begins by telling the reader what to think: what conclusions to come to, where to lay the blame. Which is completely necessary since it's a ridiculous and unfair generalization.

I would be fine with that title. In fact, I tried to sell an article to Religion Dispatches on the fascinating situation in Nigeria. Well, I don't agree with the child care part, but the Christian part, definitely. Nigerian Christians are killing, maiming and banishing children in the name of Jesus, and I think it's a good subject for a thread.

 

[Autodidact]

I can assure you that such crimes are very rare simply because women are not used to practicing adultery in muslim countries ,on the first place
and when they happen ,they don't have anything to do with Islam ,but they are jealousy or rage motivated crimes,
i have never heard of a man who kills his adultereous daughter or wife because he thinks it will please God !!! but because she hurt his dignity and Honour...bla bla


And since those crimes are rare and related to certain cultures , in our time....no one can say that that ALL MUSLIMS practice honour killings since ANCIENT TIMES ,and be so certain of himself unless he's making this up..

you also pointed to women's rights ,and made another naive generalization about them based on the taliban steretype you and other westerners have been brainwashed with

I am sorry if was offensive to you ,i am usually more tolerant in discussion

Wow, I find it fascinating that here you had an opportunity to stand up and condemn a horrible injustice, and instead the only thing you are worried about is the fact that people are exposing it. I gather you're not interested in sharing your views about the actions of this village council? Are they Islamic, in your view?

 

[Autodidact]

why do you assume that muslim women want to practice adultery or wear western clothes ?!!! THEY don't ,because they respect their own religion and identity

As for free speech and education , the MAJORITY of muslim women have them...and still we need more ,i admit.....however ,we can stand up for ourselves and our sisters...we don't need a liberator to *liberate* us from our religion and our hijab and make us dress in a fashionable western style !!!

maro: The poor girl was raped. Then she was punished. Her rapist went free. Have you no compassion? It has nothing to do with what you want to wear on your head, or where you go to school. I find it shocking and abhorrent that you don't find it in your heart to speak out against this injustice. The only thing you seem to care about is the image of Islam.

 

[Quagmire]

Not really, although there is a relationship. Here, the state is administering justice by delegating that function to local village councils, and here you see the result. If Muslims here think that's not a good system, they should say so.

Why should they? why should they feel as if this is something they need to answer for?

But yes, there is a relationship between superstitious thinking and child abuse in the Nigerian case.

And it has nothing to do with Christianity, it's basically a bunch of opportunistic local con-men playing on the supertitious malability of their "flock" by re-dressing voodoo in a pseudo-christian guise.

I would be fine with that title. In fact, I tried to sell an article to Religion Dispatches on the fascinating situation in Nigeria.

Of course you would, but can you see why Christians might object?

Well, I don't agree with the child care part, but the Christian part, definitely. Nigerian Christians are killing, maiming and banishing children in the name of Jesus, and I think it's a good subject for a thread.

Their doing it in the name of money and status. "Jesus" is just the label they're using. What difference does it make what the sign in front of their church says?

 

[Autodidact]

Why should they? why should they feel as if this is something they need to answer for?

Because an ISLAMIC country is claiming to execute ISLAMIC justice through their ISLAMIC village council interpreting ISLAMIC law. Non-Muslims really aren't in a very good position to state with authority whether they're right or wrong about that--it really falls to other Muslims to have a qualified opinion on that. Further, if they're really concerned with the image of Islam, as they seem to be, then they should condemn these actions as un-Islamic.

And it has nothing to do with Christianity, it's basically a bunch of opportunistic local con-men playing on the supertitious malability of their "flock" by re-dressing voodoo in a pseudo-christian guise.

Well they would disagree with you about that.

Of course you would, but can you see why Christians might object?

Again, I would rather see those Christians putting pressure on the Nigerian government to help the children, and decrying the actions as un-Christian, then complain about me exposing it.

Their doing it in the name of money and status. "Jesus" is just the label they're using. What difference does it make what the sign in front of their church says?

Among other things, it gives them authority and support from other Christians, including American Christians.

Anyway, your point, I believe, was my purported hypocrisy in only associating Islam with actions taken in the name of Allah, and not Christians. On the contrary, I am happy to associate the name of Christianity with actions taken in the name of Christianity.

Overall, I think it's disgusting that what people are focusing on is whether, when someone acts in the name of Islam, it's proper to say so, and not the injustice and brutality of this so-called Islamic Justice.

 

[Quagmire]

Because an ISLAMIC country is claiming to execute ISLAMIC justice through their ISLAMIC village council interpreting ISLAMIC law. Non-Muslims really aren't in a very good position to state with authority whether they're right or wrong about that--it really falls to other Muslims to have a qualified opinion on that. Further, if they're really concerned with the image of Islam, as they seem to be, then they should condemn these actions as un-Islamic.

If I were Muslim and I saw the way you choose to phrase the title of this thread, I would leave it alone too. It isn't an invitation for input or an appeal to compassion, it's an accusation and an insult.

Well they would disagree with you about that.

Of course they would, just as any con man would assure you that what they're trying to sell you is a good deal. whether they themsleves believe it is up for grabs.

Again, I would rather see those Christians putting pressure on the Nigerian government to help the children, and decrying the actions as un-Christian, then complain about me exposing it.

Who's complaining about you exposing it? And I agree I'd like to see Christians world-wide putting pressure on the Nigerian churches. But, as far as I'm concerned it isn't a matter of their responsibility as Christians---they aren't responsible for what these churches are doing and it isn't their fault if someone is using the Christian label as a means to their own ends---it's more a matter of their responsibility as human beings; they should try to put a stop to the excorsisms because with their influence, they probably could.

Among other things, it gives them authority and support from other Christians, including American Christians.

Last I read the rest of the Christian world had withdrawn their support from the Nigerian clergy. In fact, the last article I read about the situation was an expose and condemnation in a Christian magazine.

Anyway, your point, I believe, was my purported hypocrisy in only associating Islam with actions taken in the name of Allah, and not Christians.

No, I only brought up the situation Nigeria as an anology. and I'm not accusing you of hypocricy so much as propagandizing.

On the contrary, I am happy to associate the name of Christianity with actions taken in the name of Christianity.

Would you be just as happy with a thread titled; "Homosexual Anti-socialism; John Wayne Gacey rapes and kills 36 boys".

Overall, I think it's disgusting that what people are focusing on is whether, when someone acts in the name of Islam, it's proper to say so, and not the injustice and brutality of this so-called Islamic Justice.

Then you should have made this about what happened instead of tryiing to use an atrocity to win people over to your way of viewing a religion that you have a gripe with. Exploitation, I find that disgusting.

 

[dust1n]

opcorn:

 

[maro]

Wow, I find it fascinating that here you had an opportunity to stand up and condemn a horrible injustice, and instead the only thing you are worried about is the fact that people are exposing it. I gather you're not interested in sharing your views about the actions of this village council? Are they Islamic, in your view?

[qoute] maro: The poor girl was raped. Then she was punished. Her rapist went free. Have you no compassion? It has nothing to do with what you want to wear on your head, or where you go to school. I find it shocking and abhorrent that you don't find it in your heart to speak out against this injustice. The only thing you seem to care about is the image of Islam.[/quote]

honey ,your thread is garbage from the start...next time you want me to share my view with you ,care to show some respect for me and my religion .

What did you expect muslims to say ? that it's horrible ? that it's unIslamic ?.. haven't we said that enough on these forums ?!!!..are we really obliged to apologize for every psycho on the planet for you to pleased with us ?! and if you sincerely want us to share our view ,why haven't you placed it in the Islam DIR instead of a debate forum ?!!

 

[Mister Emu]

Oh thats all right then!

What?