'Islamists'

[cowboy]

other than hadith, are there any other source to get methods to perform salats for the Qur'anists?

is this post so silly that it dont deserve a reply ????

 

[Caladan]

But that is the point. Why and how exactly does anyone who makes no claim to being a Muslim get to decide that Muslims can't do that - or what you perceive as such?

Where did I say that moderate Muslims are not Muslims? You seem to be missing the entire course of the debate here. I am not the one who said that people who use violence and terror are not true Muslims, or that Sharia inspired regimes are not truly Islamic. It's the other way around, its the other members who used the not true Scotsman fallacy, so please don't turn it around at me or Falvlun.
I understand why stephen would not want Islam to be associated with negative realities, but how come he gets to the define these aspects of reality as non Islamic?
How on earth do we get to redefine Islam as pro feminism, but ended up calling gender inequality in Islam as actually Unislamic? that's pure denial.

 

[LuisDantas]

is this post so silly that it dont deserve a reply ????

Is there any reason why people can't just come up with their own? By my understanding "Salat" is basically prayer.

 

[LuisDantas]

Where did I say that moderate Muslims are not Muslims? You seem to be missing the entire course of the debate here. I am not the one who said that people who use violence and terror are not true Muslims, or that Sharia inspired regimes are not truly Islamic. It's the other way around, its the other members who used the not true Scotsman fallacy, so please don't turn it around at me or Falvlun.

I don't think I did that.

I understand why stephen would not want Islam to be associated with negative realities, but how come he gets to the define these aspects of reality as non Islamic?

Because he is a Muslim. And it is more like reinforcing what he sees Islam as being about than exactly dissociating from the negative examples.

How on earth do we get to redefine Islam as pro feminism, but ended up calling gender inequality in Islam as actually Unislamic? that's pure denial.

In a sense of the word, it is indeed denial. One must deny and counter that what is unworthy instead of just avoiding it.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Ha ha. Actually you will be surprised to find how many folks within remote Eastern villages will still huddle around a TV watching English language channels. So for good or ill the west's Enlightenment period ideas has had the most reach and impact universally than the Far East. (Not to mention the idea of a peaceful Eastern/Buddhist society doesn't exist in reality, see Stephen T. Asma's semi-ethnographic The Gods Drink Whiskey for a good dispelling of that and more myths about the East)

Erm... no, some peacefully Buddhist societies did exist.

Granted Buddhism was politically changed to breed out the more pacifistic stuff. But historically it did exist, and continues to exist on a small scale.

How about the idea that Enlightenment ideas are really at odds with Islam? Now we get into complicated territory.

Why, because the enlightenment ideas proceeded germinally from the Persian Renaissance? No, I don't think it's complex: enlightenment ideas are certainly at odds with Islam.

 

[cowboy]

Is there any reason why people can't just come up with their own?

hi luis,
i dont know, but i would like to know that from ssainhu, that is, whether Qura'nists rely on hadiths or not to adopt methods for their salats, hence i asked. She said qura'nists discards hadiths.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Ssainhu, what is your opinion of (historical & modern) liberal strains of tasawwuf that, in many cases, discarded (covertly) even the quran?

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Because he is a Muslim. And it is more like reinforcing what he sees Islam as being about than exactly dissociating from the negative examples.

By the perversion of bias, the two become the same. In order to enforce the ideal of Islam, one discards everything else that otherwise characterizes it. This is denial, and it is unworthy of even approaching the ideal if they cannot recognize the real.

 

[beenie]

hi luis,
i dont know, but i would like to know that from ssainhu, that is, whether Qura'nists rely on hadiths or not to adopt methods for their salats, hence i asked. She said qura'nists discards hadiths.

I bet a Qur'anist could answer this better, but here, I found this:

I know it's from Yahoo Answers, but the Qur'anic references are accurate

1- Standing in the Salat 7:29.
2- Avoid standing in front of the ones who deliver the Salat 4:102.
3- Bowing and prostrating. Ref. 22:77, 22:26, 3:43, 2:125
4- Deliver the Salat in MEDIUM tone. Ref. 17:110
5- Praise the Lord / God while during the Salat and Praise his sole authority. Ref. 17:111
6- Deliver the Salat in the language u understand. Ref. 4:43
7- Turn your face towards the direction of Kaaba. 2:144, 2:149
8- Recite from the Quran the passages that PRAISE God. Ref. 17:111, 29:45.
9- Prereqisite of Salat: Wuddu := Ref. 5:6
10- The closing act of the Salat is the prostration: 4:102

Ssainhu, what is your opinion of (historical & modern) liberal strains of tasawwuf that, in many cases, discarded (covertly) even the quran?

I'm going to have to research this a bit more, as I'm not entirely sure what it is.

 

[cowboy]

I bet a Qur'anist could answer this better

hi ssainhu,

so you dont have accurate knowledge about their practice? ssainhu, i think then you should not talk for them here.

i think that 'quran only muslim' poster just checks hadiths with quran passages to find any contradictions, as there is no contradictions he comes to conclusion that it is not wrong to practice salat as per hadiths, so in effect that 'quran only' muslim guy follow hadiths for his salat. And this is just his intepretation, we are not sure about other 'qura'nists' intepretations.

 

[LuisDantas]

By the perversion of bias, the two become the same. In order to enforce the ideal of Islam, one discards everything else that otherwise characterizes it. This is denial, and it is unworthy of even approaching the ideal if they cannot recognize the real.

Sorry, but I have no idea what you mean here.

 

[LuisDantas]

i think that 'quran only muslim' poster just checks hadiths with quran passages to find any contradictions, as there is no contradictions he comes to conclusion that it is not wrong to practice salat as per hadiths, so in effect that 'quran only' muslim guy follow hadiths for his salat. And this is just his intepretation, we are not sure about other 'qura'nists' intepretations.

Is that even a problem, though? One can legitimally believe that the Quran is inerrant and the Hadiths are unstrustworthy and use the recommendations for Salat practice nevertheless.

All that means is that the form of Salat is not inquestionable and immutable. Hardly a major problem.

 

[F0uad]

Quite funny how this subject changed from "Islamist" to Quranist and Hadith users.

 

[LuisDantas]

Isn't it natural? From the outside, the controversies about how to deal with Hadiths in relation to the Quran look fairly central to the current inner controversies of the Muslim community.

 

[beenie]

hi ssainhu,

so you dont have accurate knowledge about their practice? ssainhu, i think then you should not talk for them here.

i think that 'quran only muslim' poster just checks hadiths with quran passages to find any contradictions, as there is no contradictions he comes to conclusion that it is not wrong to practice salat as per hadiths, so in effect that 'quran only' muslim guy follow hadiths for his salat. And this is just his intepretation, we are not sure about other 'qura'nists' intepretations.

I never claimed to represent Qur'anists, nor did I claim to be one.

Not sure where you got that idea.

 

[beenie]

hi ssainhu,

so you dont have accurate knowledge about their practice? ssainhu, i think then you should not talk for them here.

i think that 'quran only muslim' poster just checks hadiths with quran passages to find any contradictions, as there is no contradictions he comes to conclusion that it is not wrong to practice salat as per hadiths, so in effect that 'quran only' muslim guy follow hadiths for his salat. And this is just his intepretation, we are not sure about other 'qura'nists' intepretations.

And what on earth are you even saying here? Who are you talking about?

 

[beenie]

Quite funny how this subject changed from "Islamist" to Quranist and Hadith users.

Even funnier that I'm now being accused of speaking for Qur'anists? :help:

 

[LuisDantas]

You have on occasion, even in this very thread, pointed out that certain questionable points come from Hadith instead of Quran, Ssainhu.

I seem to remember a few posts on the Quranist DIR as well, but that was long ago and not really conclusive.

 

[beenie]

You have on occasion, even in this very thread, pointed out that certain questionable points come from Hadith instead of Quran, Ssainhu.

I seem to remember a few posts on the Quranist DIR as well, but that was long ago and not really conclusive.

That sure as hell doesn't make me a Qur'anist, Luis. I think just about any Muslim you meet will tell you that there are questionable Hadith and that some Hadith cause friction amongst Muslims. I did say that Qur'anists reject Hadith; did I say something that was inaccurate?

Quite frankly, whether I accept or reject Hadith really isn't at question here. cowboy asked how Qur'anists pray without Hadith and I found Qur'anic verses that refer to how to pray without Hadith. I never said one way was right or wrong.

Not my place to say.

 

[beenie]

Is that even a problem, though? One can legitimally believe that the Quran is inerrant and the Hadiths are unstrustworthy and use the recommendations for Salat practice nevertheless.

All that means is that the form of Salat is not inquestionable and immutable. Hardly a major problem.

Exactly.

Look, I'm clearly in a struggle with where I stand when it comes to Hadith and several rulings/verses in the Qur'an as well. Perhaps that stems from my multi-cultural upbringing or from my inherent need to read every little thing, including doubters of Islam's articles, blogs, etc. I often find myself disbelieving many of the Hadith that seem to contradict the very essence of an accepted religion (I'm not going to post them here, so don't ask). Let's just say that I find some Hadith to be cruel and quite honestly, don't jive with coming from a holy prophet. I often wonder what he would do if he could read these writings that were done centuries after his death.

I'm sick and tired of Islam being compartmentalized and shoved into this little unyielding, unaccepting, xenophobic box that we see today. As I've said, maybe we need a revision. Maybe we need new leaders; maybe we need someone who can just look beyond all the bullcrap and see what the true message is, but I can tell you that in order for Islam to survive, something will need to change within Muslims themselves.

I believe that Muslims are breaking into sects for two reasons:

One group is trying to stand firm and return to "orthodox" Islam;

Other groups are trying to make Islam more "palatable";

Other groups are trying to reform it.

Other groups are just leaving it entirely.
I'm was in the second and third group, and now I don't know where I am.

Call me a Qur'anist, call me a kaafir... whatever.