'Islamists'

[sandandfoam]

I would also take it further and say that this "true" Islam that Muslims like to point to to show that Islam could never be held responsible for atrocities xyz, isn't really a religion, since apparently, nobody's actually following it. A religion is what people actually believe and do, not what they don't believe and don't do, which is what this "true" Islam seems to consist of.

I am wholly against violence - does that mean I am not a muslim in your view?

 

[beenie]

Depending, of course, on which Muslims you ask...

True, and that's why you need to ask me.

I'm not going to deny that women in most Muslim societies are held to a high standard though... that's a huge problem Muslims should have fixed decades ago, but since they didn't, they need to now.

 

[YmirGF]

True, and that's why you need to ask me.

Yeah, I know. How silly of me, eh?

I'm not going to deny that women in most Muslim societies are held to a high standard though... that's a huge problem Muslims should have fixed decades ago, but since they didn't, they need to now.

Forgive me if I don't hold my breath awaiting the day... :run:

 

[Caladan]

Really?
Are European muslims or African muslims not really muslims so?

Western European individuals did not grow up in Muslim cultures, they are attempting to accommodate themselves to Islamic culture. A European convert to Islam needs to fit himself to Islamic traditions which are dictated by hundreds of years of culture. You cannot reinvent Islam, and still call it Islam.

 

[Falvlun]

I am wholly against violence - does that mean I am not a muslim in your view?

I wasn't talking about Muslims, and who is one and who isn't. I was talking about this "true Islam" concept that is used as an excuse as to why Islam really isn't responsible for many negative aspects in Muslim culture, even those which are supported by the way Islam has been interpreted and practiced for hundreds of years.

I am saying it is disingenuous to claim that, for example, the view of women in Muslim societies is not because of Islam, because "true Islam" supports equality for both genders, when it is quite obvious that this viewpoint has been enshrined as part of the religious teachings and practices of Islam. (Just making up an example of the sorts of things that are said.)

 

[sandandfoam]

Western European individuals did not grow up in Muslim cultures, they are attempting to accommodate themselves to Islamic culture. A European convert to Islam needs to fit himself to Islamic traditions which are dictated by hundreds of years of culture. You cannot reinvent Islam, and still call it Islam.

I do not have to reinvent anything. I believe that there is no God but God and Muhammad is His Prophet.

 

[sandandfoam]

I am saying it is disingenuous to claim that, for example, the view of women in Muslim societies is not because of Islam, because "true Islam" supports equality for both genders, when it is quite obvious that this viewpoint has been enshrined as part of the religious teachings and practices of Islam. (Just making up an example of the sorts of things that are said.)

Re the treatment of women the example of the Prophet was anything but misogynistic.

Google Islam and feminism and see what you find.

 

[Caladan]

I do not have to reinvent anything. I believe that there is no God but God and Muhammad is His Prophet.

And what else?
Do you eat Halal? Abstain from alcohol? Avoid pork? Preform Salat? Planning to make the Hajj? Pay Zakat? Fast during the month of Ramadan? and so on and so forth?

 

[Falvlun]

Re the treatment of women the example of the Prophet was anything but misogynistic.

Google Islam and feminism and see what you find.

Sorry, stephen. Your "true Islam" is far outweighed by the evidence of "actual Islam".

Your arguments, and any "true Islam" arguments for that matter, seem to have a big "no true scotsman" problem.

 

[Kemble]

I am wholly against violence - does that mean I am not a muslim in your view?

Fighting is a valid path of Jihad and is the surest ticket to Jannah according to the Quran and Islamic literature. The Prophet and his followers frequently engaged in it as living examples. So you can consider yourself a Muslim but in reality your interpretation doesn't align with the full religious tradition.

 

[LuisDantas]

Is it just me, or is it weird to see non-Muslims deciding what Islam can't ever be?

 

[Falvlun]

Is it just me, or is it weird to see non-Muslims deciding what Islam can't ever be?

I think you are mistaking the argument. It's not what Islam can't ever be. It's about acknowledging what it actually often is.

Contrast that with what stephen, and others are claiming: that Islam isn't all that stuff we see it as because it can only be like their specific interpretation.

I agree that Islam is, and can be, a peaceful religion. But to claim that it is always, and only, a peaceful religion is to ignore, and disavow, the way that Islam has often been interpreted, practiced, and marketed.

In my opinion, it's no different than a Protestant saying that those Catholics aren't "true Christians", or Catholics saying that Protestants aren't practicing "true Christianity".

 

[beenie]

Is it just me, or is it weird to see non-Muslims deciding what Islam can't ever be?

It's not you, Luis.

There is no doubt in my mind that Islamic culture has a huge problem, and that there are many Muslims who are interpreting and implementing a very warped version of Islam. I despise the treatment of women; I despise the "we are right, you are wrong" attitude. I hate the thought that everyone will go to hell except for Muslims. I despise the idea of eternal hell. I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

I honestly think a huge part of the problem is Hadith, its vagueness, and the ability for any schmoe to become a so-called "scholar" and have followers. Since there is no formal clergy, so-to-speak, there is no control over who becomes an Imam, etc. I'm NOT advocating a formal clergy either, as I think it has problems in and of itself.

Every organized religion has its problems, and it's really up to the individuals to change it. I admire stephenw's outlook, and while it may be idealistic to non-Muslims (who are even asking if he eats halaal??) Who friggin' cares? To me, he epitomizes the very vision I have of "true Islam". What he eats or how he prays is really no one's damn business, and is strictly between him and God. I call him a Muslim, and if he calls himself a Muslim and holds his opinions, then who in the hell are we to tell him he's not a "real" Muslim? What in the hell IS a real Muslim?

Unless people are so satisfied in seeing how "bad" all Muslims must be that it's too damn impossible to believe there could be a culture of "good" ones emerging... just a thought.

You all know I'm no apologist for Islam, but when I see a caring, even-tempered, peaceful Muslim, who represents my viewpoints (and quite frankly, the viewpoints of MOST Muslims I know), I'm going to at least acknowledge it.

 

[beenie]

I think you are mistaking the argument. It's not what Islam can't ever be. It's about acknowledging what it actually often is.

Contrast that with what stephen, and others are claiming: that Islam isn't all that stuff we see it as because it can only be like their specific interpretation.

I agree that Islam is, and can be, a peaceful religion. But to claim that it is always, and only, a peaceful religion is to ignore, and disavow, the way that Islam has often been interpreted, practiced, and marketed.

In my opinion, it's no different than a Protestant saying that those Catholics aren't "true Christians", or Catholics saying that Protestants aren't practicing "true Christianity".

I don't disagree here, but if stephenw's vision of Islam is peaceful, then that is what he has gathered from it. That IS Islam; anyone who says you can't mold a faith into what you envision it to be for yourself is stuck in the 7th century.

 

[Falvlun]

I don't disagree here, but if stephenw's vision of Islam is peaceful, then that is what he has gathered from it. That IS Islam; anyone who says you can't mold a faith into what you envision it to be for yourself is stuck in the 7th century.

I have no problem with that being his Islam. The issue I have is when he states that that is "true" Islam, and everything else simply isn't.

 

[beenie]

I have no problem with that being his Islam. The issue I have is when he states that that is "true" Islam, and everything else simply isn't.

Maybe to him, that is true Islam. Maybe he thinks all the violence is against Islam because what is prescribed in the Qur'an is from centuries ago. Maybe he thinks that Islam needs to progress so he disregards anything he doesn't think fits in with a peaceful Islam. I don't know, I can't get inside his mind, and I'm sure he can explain himself. My point is that everyone perceives something different from holy texts, Falvlun. You don't have to agree with him, and something tells me he won't mind if you don't. (I'm not being snarky, by the way).

So if I agree with him, do you think I'm not a "real" Muslim either?

 

[Kemble]

Is it just me, or is it weird to see non-Muslims deciding what Islam can't ever be?

It sounds like it, and you are implying that there is a personal element to religion unique to the believer and I agree. But, Islam is an objective religious tradition. It is possible to analyse the authoritative text first-hand, the literature surrounding the historical characters involved, earlier scholars' interpretation of the literature, contemporary and historical behavior in line with the tradition, et cetera. So it isn't that weird. Religious scholars do it all the time with or without being part of the religion they analyse (although intimate contact with the historical and contemporary tradition can make a case that scholars are in some way participants of the tradition).

 

[Falvlun]

Maybe to him, that is true Islam. Maybe he thinks all the violence is against Islam because what is prescribed in the Qur'an is from centuries ago. Maybe he thinks that Islam needs to progress so he disregards anything he doesn't think fits in with a peaceful Islam. I don't know, I can't get inside his mind, and I'm sure he can explain himself. My point is that everyone perceives something different from holy texts, Falvlun. You don't have to agree with him, and something tells me he won't mind if you don't. (I'm not being snarky, by the way).

So if I agree with him, do you think I'm not a "real" Muslim either?

I have never said anything about who is or isn't a real Muslim. Like I said, I think it's the viewpoint of those who claim what is or isn't "true Islam" that are the ones making that distinction.

I think you have a rather healthy outlook regarding your religion: You acknowledge its difficulties, and that they are a real part of the religion to many Muslims, and you also point out where your beliefs diverge and what your desires for its future are. I completely respect that.

I also find it unfortunate, and especially regarding my recent trends in posts regarding Islam, that those Muslims who display those negative attributes tend to get all the attention. We, meaning myself and Americans in general, need to remember ourselves that jihadism, and misogyny, and harsh punishments, etc, aren't "true Islam" either. I don't believe there is such a thing as "true Islam", any more than there is such a thing as "true Christianity", though it is admittedly sometimes difficult to convey that.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I can sympathize with and appreciate people's attempts to interpret Islamic texts in a context which they perceive to be modern, but at the same time I think that Islam does encourage its being involved in all aspects of life, which entails implementing religious regulations in state laws, for example. At the very least, most Islamic scholars apparently agree that Islam is a "universal religion" and a "life constitution," so we can't ignore these interpretations and brush them off as "untrue Islam."

I could list hadiths which are regarded as 'authentic' by the vast majority of Islamic scholars which explain how important it is to implement religion in all aspects of life from an Islamic standpoint, and I could also list Qur'anic verses which are interpreted — again, by the vast majority of Islamic scholars — to mean the same thing.

Personally, I think it's unrealistic to say that Islam isn't a religion that emphasizes the importance of adhering to doctrine; it seems to me that the religion's texts as well as the majority of its scholars disagree.

 

[Kemble]

There is no doubt in my mind that Islamic culture has a huge problem, and that there are many Muslims who are interpreting and implementing a very warped version of Islam.

And my main theme in this discussion is that it isn't Arab culture or warped versions of Islam, but a strict adherence to what the primary and secondary texts say that develops extremism. So I don't think violence will ever divorce itself from Islam unless a basic western (foreign) culture or philosophy prevails and the violent, sexist, and racist verses annulled. But again, annulling Islamic texts, especially the primary one, somewhat denies the divine authority of the texts.