YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Depending, of course, on which Muslims you ask...
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
'Islamists'
- Thread starter sandandfoam
- Start date
Are there any drinking establishments owned by women in Islamic countries?
Looncall
Well-Known Member
I have known them expressed by muslims many times, on this discussion board too, and they are clearly followed in muslim-majority countries. I think you are mistaken.
It is not a matter of whether Stephen is mistaken or not, but rather of how representative of true Islam he is in comparison to those who disagree with him on these matters, though.
One should note that Islam, as the word is often used by Muslims, is not necessarily the same as "Muslim religion" or "Muslim religious practice". It may refer to a high ideal that perhaps does not exist on Earth. That, I believe, is why it is sometimes difficult to get Muslims to name an Islamic country.
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
Quite.
Of course my view is the correct one
On a more serious note - relativity is a major reason that judgement of others is best left to the Supreme.
Shuddhasattva
Well-Known Member
Heedless of the uselessness of doing so, reality conflates culture and religion almost always.
Culturally useless attitudes (like disparagement of women) are enshrined in the quran, hadiths, fiqh and Muslim popular opinion.
By contrast, let's look at Hindus and Hinduism with respect to gender-inclusive human rights. I would rank Hindus #2, right behind Muslims, as disrespecters of female persons, moreso in some ways.
Is the Hindu religion itself sexist in the way that Islam is? Not quite. While sexism, overt and covert, subconscious and fully aware, often seeks religious justification, it finds them in scriptures considered unauthoritative and nonbinding, owing to the vastness of the Hindu canon.
Nonetheless, sexism is conserved by religiously orthodox communities though it be more cultural than religious.
Take another example: brutal practices of Muslim Afghanis in dealing with "honor;" especially that of women who are held to dishonor the clan by engaging in premarital sex; even against her will. They are killed or mutilated.
This isn't Islam or shariah; this is Pashtunwali; tribal law which far predates. However, Islam hasn't defused it and its own attitudes infused with these certainly aren't helping matters. Again, this is cultural moreso than religious.
But Islam's own misogyny cannot be dismissed as cultural.
Amongst other unsavory Islamic issues, whitewashing propagandists and apologists who doth protest overmuch aside.
Culturally useless attitudes (like disparagement of women) are enshrined in the quran, hadiths, fiqh and Muslim popular opinion.
By contrast, let's look at Hindus and Hinduism with respect to gender-inclusive human rights. I would rank Hindus #2, right behind Muslims, as disrespecters of female persons, moreso in some ways.
Is the Hindu religion itself sexist in the way that Islam is? Not quite. While sexism, overt and covert, subconscious and fully aware, often seeks religious justification, it finds them in scriptures considered unauthoritative and nonbinding, owing to the vastness of the Hindu canon.
Nonetheless, sexism is conserved by religiously orthodox communities though it be more cultural than religious.
Take another example: brutal practices of Muslim Afghanis in dealing with "honor;" especially that of women who are held to dishonor the clan by engaging in premarital sex; even against her will. They are killed or mutilated.
This isn't Islam or shariah; this is Pashtunwali; tribal law which far predates. However, Islam hasn't defused it and its own attitudes infused with these certainly aren't helping matters. Again, this is cultural moreso than religious.
But Islam's own misogyny cannot be dismissed as cultural.
Amongst other unsavory Islamic issues, whitewashing propagandists and apologists who doth protest overmuch aside.
Yes, it does, and arguably it must. It is a two-way street, though.
All of those are however changeable, or at least they should be. The obvious exception is the Quran, and I suppose that may prove to be an unsurmountable problem... but it really depends on the decisions and interpretations of Muslims. They have the power to decide that certain passages of the Quran should be disregarded or interpreted in such a way as to deny support for mysoginy and other faults. It will probably be difficult or even impossible for a great number of them, but it is their call the same.
That may or may not involve actually disregarding part of the Quranic text. I do not know and will rather not try to guess.
Mercy Not Sacrifice
Well-Known Member
Good luck with that...
Mercy Not Sacrifice
Well-Known Member
Um. That sounds like when some Christians try to dismiss some of their own as "not really Christian, because they did X and no true Christian would ever do that." Not saying that's what's going on, but I couldn't help but notice the parallel.
And it is a fitting parallel. It does apply IMNSHO. Christians, much like Muslims and anyone else, shouldn't feel stymied about taking the responsibility over their own faiths.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
What is religion if not a cultural phenomenon?
Islam is an inseparable part of many cultures, in fact you cannot in any way separate Islam from their culture, as the faith determines anything from their dietary habits, their marriage life, and dozens of others basic factors in private and collective life.
You don't think that Islam has been an influential factor in creating Middle Eastern culture?
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
Indeed, but the two are not synonymous.
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
That's fair enough, I think I also alluded to that "On a more serious note - relativity is a major reason that judgement of others is best left to the Supreme. "
I think its the other way round,at least as far as an Islamist is concerned,an Islamist believes that everybody should only live under their Gods law and not Humans,Qutb,Al Banna and further back than Wahab all state this which is also the flavour of the Muslim Brotherhood,in a nutshell an Islamist is like Hamas,Hezbollah,Al Qaeda or even the Kings of oil except only the Kings of oil make freinds with Kuffar
.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Only in theory, not in reality or every day life.
I would also take it further and say that this "true" Islam that Muslims like to point to to show that Islam could never be held responsible for atrocities xyz, isn't really a religion, since apparently, nobody's actually following it. A religion is what people actually believe and do, not what they don't believe and don't do, which is what this "true" Islam seems to consist of.