Israel charging money to demolsih Bedouin homes

[Tamar]

it's a one mind set Tamar. there is no reasoning because no matter what we say, it isn't true

Yeah I see.....

 

[Alceste]

it's a one mind set Tamar. there is no reasoning because no matter what we say, it isn't true

You haven't said anything that a person could even categorize as "true" or "false". You've just gotten all huffy and defensive (again) because somebody suggested the Israeli government might not be perfect. Do you even have an opinion on Israel's policy regarding Bedouin villages in the Negev? If so, I honestly want to hear it. Honestly. I mean it. Please share it.

 

[Bismillah]

Nope, the "opposition" for lack of a better term has done nothing to refute evidence nor justify Israel's actions besides looking at the entire scenario from a relative viewpoint, which is in itself disgusting.

 

[Alceste]

It's also interesting to note the compensation that Jewish Israelis receive side by side with that of the Bedouins.

Linking to what I have posted before http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2569437-post124.html

The amount of money received by Jews in comparison to Bedouins does not compare, it is just one example of the discriminatory policy of the Israeli government.

I also find it hilarious that we are trying to compare sedentary Bedouins who have lived on the same land for centuries with Jews illegally encroaching upon ancestral lands of other Arabs. Only a fool and hypocrite would be blind to the difference.

I highlight the word sedentary because these are not nomads, they have been inhabiting and living in their villages many times before the idea of "Israel" was fermented. It's also completely shocking that reading comprehension is so abysmal to ignore the fact that this is a wide scale cleansing of Bedouins as opposed to minor incidences of Jews in the W.B compared with the exponentially increasing number of Jewish colonists in the West Bank every month.

It's also hilarious that certain members have resorted to some pretty childish name-calling, it's hard to stand by bigotry when confronted with facts I suppose.

The best policy is to do our best to ignore ad hominem attacks and red herrings and doggedly stick to the subject at hand, which is the demolition of Bedouin villages in the Negev in what appears to be an effort to control the ethnic make-up of the area and ensure a Jewish majority.

On a broad scale, I think land use planning in Israel is too highly centralized, and the decision-making authority in all branches of government rests in the hands of ideologues who are attempting to use their branch of Israel's bureaucracy to maintain a Jewish majority, despite the fact that the Jewish population in Israel is not growing at a comparable rate to the Arab population.

 

[Alceste]

Nope, the "opposition" for lack of a better term has done nothing to refute evidence nor justify Israel's actions besides looking at the entire scenario from a relative viewpoint, which is in itself disgusting.

Well, let's do our best to be objective anyway. I can see why the Israeli government would want to control the demographic make-up of various districts of the country through the land use bureaucracy: If they do not either give up the principle of democracy or forcibly disperse the Arab population within Israel, there will be no "Jewish state" in few decades. There will either be a democratic state dominated by Arabs, or there will be a military dictatorship ruled by a Jewish minority.

Personally, I think the right thing to do would be to accept that a state cannot be ruled by a single ethnicity and still be democratic and choose.

 

[Tamar]

You haven't said anything that a person could even categorize as "true" or "false". You've just gotten all huffy and defensive (again) because somebody suggested the Israeli government might not be perfect. Do you even have an opinion on Israel's policy regarding Bedouin villages in the Negev? If so, I honestly want to hear it. Honestly. I mean it. Please share it.

Good grief no government is perfect, no one has said that.......

 

[Tamar]

You haven't said anything that a person could even categorize as "true" or "false". You've just gotten all huffy and defensive (again) because somebody suggested the Israeli government might not be perfect. Do you even have an opinion on Israel's policy regarding Bedouin villages in the Negev? If so, I honestly want to hear it. Honestly. I mean it. Please share it.

I certainly gave you links of the Israeli government demolishing illegal Jewish settlements when you said they didn't. But when I did that you back tracked and said you actually meant "in Israel" not the west bank or gaza.

You didn't like my answer so you changed the question after the fact.

 

[kai]

Let me get this straight these Bedouin in the Negev are Israelis?


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More than 180,000 Bedouin live in Israel's Negev desert, but there is a big gap in terms of life opportunities between those Bedouin who live in 35 unrecognized villages, and those luckier ones for whom Israel has created seven towns or who live in seven officially recognized villages, say human rights workers.

Those in unrecognized villages face a constant threat of eviction, and are cut off from even basic services. Aside from the threats to their homes, not enough is being done by Israel to lift these Bedouin communities out of poverty, they say.

Amal Elsana Al Hajooj, a Bedouin woman living in the Negev and the director of the Negev Institute for Strategies of Peace and Development, explained to IRIN that unemployment and poverty rates among the Negev Bedouin in unrecognized villages are the highest in Israel:


IRIN Middle East | ISRAEL: Opportunity gulf between Bedouin in the Negev | Israel | Gender Issues | Human Rights


Clearly this is a problem that must be addressed by the Israeli government

 

[Alceste]

Good grief no government is perfect, no one has said that.......

So is the uncompensated, extra-judicial demolition of Bedouin homes in the Negev a good example of Israel's imperfection?

I swear to god, it's like pulling teeth sometimes.

 

[Alceste]

I certainly gave you links of the Israeli government demolishing illegal Jewish settlements when you said they didn't. But when I did that you back tracked and said you actually meant "in Israel" not the west bank or gaza.

You didn't like my answer so you changed the question after the fact.

That wasn't a backtrack, it was a request that we stick to the subject of the OP, which is Israel's treatment of a Bedouin ISRAELI minority IN ISRAEL. Jewish settlements in the occupied territories are a different kettle of fish for a number of reasons, none of which are relevant to this particular thread.

 

[Alceste]

Let me get this straight these Bedouin in the Negev are Israelis?


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More than 180,000 Bedouin live in Israel's Negev desert, but there is a big gap in terms of life opportunities between those Bedouin who live in 35 unrecognized villages, and those luckier ones for whom Israel has created seven towns or who live in seven officially recognized villages, say human rights workers.

Those in unrecognized villages face a constant threat of eviction, and are cut off from even basic services. Aside from the threats to their homes, not enough is being done by Israel to lift these Bedouin communities out of poverty, they say.

Amal Elsana Al Hajooj, a Bedouin woman living in the Negev and the director of the Negev Institute for Strategies of Peace and Development, explained to IRIN that unemployment and poverty rates among the Negev Bedouin in unrecognized villages are the highest in Israel:


IRIN Middle East | ISRAEL: Opportunity gulf between Bedouin in the Negev | Israel | Gender Issues | Human Rights


Clearly this is a problem that must be addressed by the Israeli government

Yes, they are Israeli citizens, and many of them VOLUNTARILY serve in the Israeli army.

 

[kai]

Yes, they are Israeli citizens, and many of them VOLUNTARILY serve in the Israeli army.

Yep got it.

In 1948 the majority of Bedouin were expelled from the Negev Desert to the Egyptian Sinai. Those who remained within Israel were granted full Israeli citizenship.


Bedouin in the Negev under attack | Jews for Justice for Palestinians


so what do we have here?

Is this a symptom of a new country trying to develop the Negev and the Bedouin land claims are deemed illegal, or is it seeing as they are all Israelis,a more sinister sounding Jew non Jew thing? Because i have a problem with viewing it as ethnic cleansing, How can it be ethnic cleansing if the Israeli state recognises 7 Bedouin towns and has plans to recognize more.


in response to a new development plan proposed for the Beersheba region, including the Bedouin villages within it. The appeal resulted in recommendations being adopted last Tuesday (20 Jul 2010) according to which up to 25 of the unrecognized villages would be partly or fully recognized by the state.

http://jfjfp.com/?p=15842

 

[Bismillah]

It has gone past the point of compensation to the scenario of Israel charging Bedouins to demolish their homes, the OP was about that and my later reference to the lack of Bedouin compensations documents another such case.

Secondly it is interesting to note how Beduoins who have historically volunteered in large numbers for IDF service and some are regarded as heroes of the IDF are becoming much more discontent. There was a link that showed that Bedouin's acknowledgement for Israel's "right to exist" is lower amongst them than Palestinians in the West Bank.

 

[Alceste]

Yep got it.

In 1948 the majority of Bedouin were expelled from the Negev Desert to the Egyptian Sinai. Those who remained within Israel were granted full Israeli citizenship.


Bedouin in the Negev under attack | Jews for Justice for Palestinians


so what do we have here?

Is this a symptom of a new country trying to develop the Negev and the Bedouin land claims are deemed illegal, or is it seeing as they are all Israelis,a more sinister sounding Jew non Jew thing? Because i have a problem with viewing it as ethnic cleansing, How can it be ethnic cleansing if the Israeli state recognises 7 Bedouin towns and has plans to recognize more.


in response to a new development plan proposed for the Beersheba region, including the Bedouin villages within it. The appeal resulted in recommendations being adopted last Tuesday (20 Jul 2010) according to which up to 25 of the unrecognized villages would be partly or fully recognized by the state.

Bedouin in the Negev under attack | Jews for Justice for Palestinians

You don't have to call it "ethic cleansing" if that makes you uncomfortable. You can call it "demographic manipulation by the forcible relocation and dispersal of an ethnic minority" if that suits you better.

 

[Bismillah]

Considering the poverty rates and lack of land available for the Bedouins forced upon those hovels its a clear case of the ghettoization of its Arab citizens. Not to mention the fact that the contrasts of severe land shortages amongst the Bedouins is contrasted with the largest land to people ratio in the areas of the Negev seized and paid for by public funds for private Jewish land.

 

[kai]

You don't have to call it "ethic cleansing" if that makes you uncomfortable. You can call it "demographic manipulation by the forcible relocation and dispersal of an ethnic minority" if that suits you better.

Yeah its forcible relocation and dispersal within the Borders of Israel and defined to the Negev.

I call it total mismanagement by the Government of Israel on a particular area of land and within a section of their own community. It needs sorting and soon.

 

[Bismillah]

It's not mismanagement, the Israelis are specifically allocating vast amounts of Negev lands to private Jewish citizens while confining much larger numbers to much smaller areas while Arabs have no say in the allocation or no representation amongst their committees to appeal the process or apply to live on the land that is allocated after being seized from the Bedouins. It comes smack dab with a quote from Netanyahu about making the Negev Jewish is in the interests of its security.

 

[kai]

It's not mismanagement, the Israelis are specifically allocating vast amounts of Negev lands to private Jewish citizens while confining much larger numbers to much smaller areas while Arabs have no say in the allocation or no representation amongst their committees to appeal the process or apply to live on the land that is allocated after being seized from the Bedouins. It comes smack dab with a quote from Netanyahu about making the Negev Jewish is in the interests of its security.

I would have thought dealing with these particular Bedouin in a decent manner would be in the interest of Its security. what their doing may well and up with a Bedouin intifada.

The Bedouin of the Negev: a forgotten minority​

by Kathrin Koeller
http://www.fmreview.org/textOnlyContent/FMR/26/20.doc

 

[Alceste]

I would have thought dealing with these particular Bedouin in a decent manner would be in the interest of Its security. what their doing may well and up with a Bedouin intifada.

The Bedouin of the Negev: a forgotten minority​

by Kathrin Koeller
http://www.fmreview.org/textOnlyContent/FMR/26/20.doc

What Netanyahu means when he says "security" is not what you or I woul mean, I think. It seems to mean "forcibly manipulating the ethnic make-up of parts if Israel to try to secure a Jewish perpetual majority in government". If that means spurring anger and rebellion in the Arab population, Netanyahu does not appear to care. He can have a Jewish homeland or a peaceful, just, fair and open democracy, and he's chosen a Jewish homeland. That means he needs to keep shoving Israeli Arabs around to ensure they never get a taste of political influence.

 

[Levite]

What Netanyahu means when he says "security" is not what you or I woul mean, I think. It seems to mean "forcibly manipulating the ethnic make-up of parts if Israel to try to secure a Jewish perpetual majority in government". If that means spurring anger and rebellion in the Arab population, Netanyahu does not appear to care. He can have a Jewish homeland or a peaceful, just, fair and open democracy, and he's chosen a Jewish homeland. That means he needs to keep shoving Israeli Arabs around to ensure they never get a taste of political influence.

While I have already indicated that I feel that Israel has problems with civil rights enforcement that it needs to address (for all its citizens, including Israeli Arabs, including Bedouins), it is a massive double-standard to say that Israel can either be a just and fair democracy or the Jewish homeland, but not both.

I admit that, even if Israel were to address and resolve the civil rights problems it currently is responsible for, there would still be certain inherent biases to keep the country's Jewish character intact, but such things are negligible, and many societies have certain rules designed to preserve this or that cultural heritage or cultural character.

I don't see international complaints about Saudi Arabia keeping itself basically Muslim-only (about other problems there, sure, but not that). And I say, fine: let it be Muslim-only, if they want. It's their country, Muslims are the majority, the central shrines of Islam are there. They get to make the rules.

Most European countries have a national religion, a national language, etc. Citizens with other religions, who primarily speak other languages deal with it. Many countries in Europe also have strict definitions about what constitutes proper use of certain names, or government programs to promote the protection of certain kinds of traditional music, cookery, etc. People who want to do other things, or use protected names in other ways are out of luck-- that's just part of the deal.

If one is non-Japanese living in Japan, I am given to understand it can be a little difficult. Same with non-Koreans living in Korea.

Yet somehow, it's only a horrible idea to preserve the national character and promote a certain national identity when the Jews do it. Strange how that works.

It seems to me that Israel needs to improve and resolve its civil rights issues so that non-Jews who are citizens of the Jewish State are not unduly discriminated against, yes. But, ultimately, it's the Jewish State. And if, once it is no longer a problem for non-Jewish citizens to get fair compensation from the government in cases of eminent domain, or to get prompt and fair infrastructural services, or to have equal opportunities in employment in practice as well as theory, it remains a problem for non-Jewish citizens that they live in a Jewish State, which must sometimes take actions to preserve its Jewish nature, and which may mean that there are certain things that will inevitably be inclined to Jews and not non-Jews...then they will always free to go and live elsewhere.

The entire rest of the world is composed of states that are not Jewish. Nearly one third of the world's states are Muslim or Muslim-majority. The whole rest of the Middle East is Arab (except for Iran). The only Jewish State in existence is this one tiny dot of land, barely the size of the State of Delaware. For the life of me, I do not understand why it is thought fair or just that Jews should give up their one state because of the unwillingness of some of the Arab population to either deal with living in a Jewish State or just move elsewhere (though, again, I am not saying that Israel shouldn't deal with solving civil rights problems for all its citizens).