Israel Declares War After Hamas Attacks

[We Never Know]

This US reaction seems to be either....
1) A show of force that's merely PR. It isn't useful
to wage war in a dense urban area full of innocent
civilians.
2) A dangerous use of force that will kill far more
civilians than combatants.

Ramping up the civilian carnage, Israel is now
denying them food, fuel, & utilities.

Israel announces ‘total’ blockade on Gaza

Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant says blockade will include ban on admission of food, electricity and fuel.

www.aljazeera.com

‘People are fearful of what’s to come’: Gaza civilians flee waves of Israeli strikes

Palestinians seek refuge but electricity and gas have been cut off and medical infrastructure is on its knees

www.theguardian.com

It could be that Hamas is expecting an Israeli
over-reaction that will starve, bomb, & drive
away Palestinians. This might be designed to
inspire more resistance to Israeli occupation.

The US will likely 'go to war' in Israel with air and naval power if Syria or Iran become actively involved, retired 4-star general says​

MSN

 

[We Never Know]

When one element tries to kill as many civilians as possible as Hamas is doing, that's clearly "genocide".

Women, kids, elderly they don't care. They either kill them or kidnap them.
Now they are threatening to kill 100+ hostages on camera one by one.
They need to be wiped off the map.

 

[Jimmy]

I know it would be an awful thing to have to do but maybe the Jewish people that don’t believe that the land was promised to them by God could move to the United States and the Jewish people that believe can stay in Israel and fight for their belief no? At least it would save lives.

 

[Orbit]

Hi. I used to think like you do about the Israel/Palestine situation, that is until I read the Palestine Papers. I read the diplomatic communications between the U.S., Palestinian, and Israeli officials trying to broker a peace for the region. What I found out was that not only did Palestine think Israel should not exist, Israel thought that Palestine should not exist, rejecting a proposed two-state solution.

Palestine Papers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The whole mess began when Israel was created after WWII. Historically, Israel has illegally expanded its borders, forcing Palestinians off their land. This is problematic.

An example, from my link below:
"The biggest change to Israel's frontiers came in 1967, when the conflict known as the Six Day War left Israel in occupation of the Sinai peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and most of the Syrian Golan Heights - effectively tripling the size of territory under Israel's control. Israel effectively annexed East Jerusalem - claiming the whole of the city as its capital - and the Golan Heights. These moves were not recognised by the international community, until the US changed its official position on the matter under the Trump administration, becoming the first major power to do so. Overwhelmingly, international opinion continues to consider East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights as occupied territory."

Whole history of border expansion is here: Israel's borders explained in maps

The more I looked into it, the more I saw wrongdoing on both sides: desperate people forced from their land resorting to terrorism; Israeli soldiers shooting Palestinian children for throwing rocks at them; virtual apartheid; the abysmal treatment of Gaza. No one is innocent here, except for dead civilians.

It is a mess with too much historical baggage to recount here, but after looking into it I can no longer take sides.
Lest this attempt at contextualization be misunderstood, I condemn all terrorist attacks, but the Israeli role in prompting them can't be ignored. I have no idea what the solution is.

Women, kids, elderly they don't care. They either kill them or kidnap them.
Now they are threatening to kill 100+ hostages on camera one by one.
They need to be wiped off the map.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Revoltingest]

The US will likely 'go to war' in Israel with air and naval power if Syria or Iran become actively involved, retired 4-star general says​

MSN

Those things strike me as highly unlikely.
But it's a way for the US (via a general)
to talk tough with it unlikely to do anything.

 

[Copernicus]

The US will likely 'go to war' in Israel with air and naval power if Syria or Iran become actively involved, retired 4-star general says​

Those things strike me as highly unlikely.
But it's a way for the US (via a general)
to talk tough with it unlikely to do anything.

I agree. Congress would not declare war to defend Israel any more than it would authorize US troops in Ukraine, and fighting against Palestinians would embroil the US in all kinds of nasty tangles with Arab governments and the Muslim world. The general is retired and only speaking emotionally. Regardless of how generals feel, the US military answers to civilian authority.

 

[esmith]

I think there is some validity to the statment if one considers the large "if". Supplying militay material aid is considerably different than actively putting boots on the ground.

 

[Revoltingest]

Congress would not declare war to defend Israel any more than it would authorize US troops in Ukraine.....

I'm sure USA would be willing to wage war against
any country that massively attacked Israel, which
differes from Ukraine by having far more political
power here.

 

[England my lionheart]

Israel just called for genocide of Hamas, so how is that different

Good call imo,there will never be peace with Hamas or Islamic jihad existing,if only the Palestinians realised that.

 

[Lyndon]

People that call for genocide are no better than the nazis that exterminated Jews

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

People that call for genocide are no better than the nazis that exterminated Jews

People who willfully fail to understand what genocide connotes are no better than those who stood idly by as the nazis that exterminated Jews.

 

[Mock Turtle]

People that call for genocide are no better than the nazis that exterminated Jews

With Hamas blackmailing Israel as to killing hostages, how about Israel returns the favour and tells them nothing will change as to retaliatory actions until the Palestinians hand over all of the Hamas murderers?

 

[Subduction Zone]

We asked: “You may have been following recent developments in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. In your opinion which of the following is closer to describing the way Israel looks to you.” We provided the following four options: a vibrant democracy; a flawed democracy; a state with restricted minority rights; a state with segregation similar to apartheid.

Brookings

Is Israel a democracy? Here’s what Americans think​

Shibley Telhami​

April 25, 2023

I am not posting the results but you will be surprised

Was that supposed to be a link to an article? If so your link did not work. If you posted one to a general site then that is pretty much a failure no matter what. I am sure that Israel's elected government is not perfect. But you should be supporting your claims properly with quotes and links, not a link to a site of unknown reliability.

 

[Bthoth]

Was that supposed to be a link to an article?

NO but a title to do a search if anyone so chooses

I am sure that Israel's elected government is not perfect.

Nor is my government.

But you should be supporting your claims properly with quotes and links, not a link to a site of unknown reliability.

I did not impose a link. I am not well versed on the forum cut n paste methods. It is one reason i rarely hit any link

 

[Left Coast]

@Debater Slayer @Orbit

Sorry I haven't replied again for a couple days. I have some family things going on right now that need my attention and emotional bandwidth.

I maintain firmly that there is no excuse for terrorism, and that if you want to morally equivocate about Israel and Hamas, consider this: if the military and geopolitical situations of the two were reversed today, there would be no Israel. We wouldn't be talking about occupation. We'd be talking about annihilation. This is not armchair philosophizing. This is a bright red line that has incredibly dire real world consequences if we make policy based on cloudy moral reasoning. And frankly, if Hamas were a group of white dudes wearing crosses, there would be zero debate on the Left about this. Zero. Their antisemitism and terrorism would be called out unequivocally and unanimously for what it is.

Israel has certainly made the situation worse and Netanyahu's government must be held accountable for its failures and extremism. The situation in Gaza has been awful for years (in large part because it is, again, run by Hamas). And innocent Palestinians do get excessively caught in the crossfire. Hamas uses them intentionally as shields, firing missiles from schools and hospitals and mosques where they know retaliatory strikes by Israel will kill innocents.

None of that should lead us to the conclusion that we just can't figure out whether we support a liberal democratic state that can and has been reformed and has every right to exist or a group of Islamists who want to exterminate Jews and replace Israel with a caliphate. It's very clear to me.

That's all I'll be able to say for now so I can attend to things in offline life. I'll read your replies when I can.

 

[Subduction Zone]

NO but a title to do a search if anyone so chooses

Nor is my government.

I did not impose a link. I am not well versed on the forum cut n paste methods. It is one reason i rarely hit any link

Practice makes perfect. It makes you a better debater if you can link and quote directly form an article. If you can link a general site you can link an article. The procedure is identical.

Are you using a phone or a PC? The way that you copy and paste is different. If one is using a tablet or a phone one holds ones finger on a word. It should be highlighted with visible markers at each end that you can "pull" on. When you have as much of it highlighted as you want take your fingers off and you should see various options. One of them being "copy". Tap that. With PC left click on what you want to copy. Either just before the first word or just after the last word. Move your mouse so that the words that you want to copy are highlighted. Release and then right click. Once again pick the "copy" option. Then you just paste when you get back to the cite.

I was not saying that you were right or wrong. It is just that if you can't bother to at least give a supporting quote then it is unreasonable to expect people to click on your link and read the article. One has to give a little to get a little.

 

[Orbit]

@Debater Slayer @Orbit

Sorry I haven't replied again for a couple days. I have some family things going on right now that need my attention and emotional bandwidth.

I maintain firmly that there is no excuse for terrorism, and that if you want to morally equivocate about Israel and Hamas, consider this: if the military and geopolitical situations of the two were reversed today, there would be no Israel. We wouldn't be talking about occupation. We'd be talking about annihilation. This is not armchair philosophizing. This is a bright red line that has incredibly dire real world consequences if we make policy based on cloudy moral reasoning. And frankly, if Hamas were a group of white dudes wearing crosses, there would be zero debate on the Left about this. Zero. Their antisemitism and terrorism would be called out unequivocally and unanimously for what it is.

Israel has certainly made the situation worse and Netanyahu's government must be held accountable for its failures and extremism. The situation in Gaza has been awful for years (in large part because it is, again, run by Hamas). And innocent Palestinians do get excessively caught in the crossfire. Hamas uses them intentionally as shields, firing missiles from schools and hospitals and mosques where they know retaliatory strikes by Israel will kill innocents.

None of that should lead us to the conclusion that we just can't figure out whether we support a liberal democratic state that can and has been reformed and has every right to exist or a group of Islamists who want to exterminate Jews and replace Israel with a caliphate. It's very clear to me.

That's all I'll be able to say for now so I can attend to things in offline life. I'll read your replies when I can.

In what I posted I was very clear that I condemn all terrorist attacks. But I also said that these attacks have to be understood in terms of the region's history. Innocent civilians on both sides are clearly victims in this.

 

[Bthoth]

In what I posted I was very clear that I condemn all terrorist attacks.

I have said that too but the rude try to condemn a person for not agreeing with the high octane hatred.

But I also said that these attacks have to be understood in terms of the region's history. Innocent civilians on both sides are clearly victims in this.

Solid fact no matter how ignorant the obtuse choose to be.

 

[England my lionheart]

People that call for genocide are no better than the nazis that exterminated Jews

Well that’s exactly what Hamas,Islamic jihad etc have called for since it was created,they love Hassan Al Banna an Egyptian who started the Muslim brotherhood and probably the conflict in Palestine.

Israel will exist, and will continue to exist, until Islam abolishes it, as it abolished that which was before it." [From the words of] The martyr, Imam Hasan al-Banna', Allah's mercy be upon him. [2]

 

[lokinforpeace]

“Israel Declares War”

Wow, Israel declares war on a small community, not a country.

In return Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and the other neighboring countries will declare war on Israel & the sooner the better.