Israel dragging USA down

[JacobEzra.]

And have them move to "Jordan", which you have ducked out of discussing more than thrice. The fact you don't seem to mind that Fatah and Hamas advocate the SAME EXACT THING for Jews reveals your obvious bias.

No. As I said, I believe Israel has a right to exist. And would defend that.

But Palestinians also have a right to a state and to live in West Bank and Gaza.

 

[Alceste]

Calling IDF actions indiscriminate is not only a flat out lie but basically denying that the Palestinians use deliberate use of Human shields.

LOL! The battle cry of every state murderer of civilian women, grannies and children! "We only bombed the hospital / school / day care / shopping centre because there were terrorists inside it using HUMAN SHIELDS!"

How ridiculous. Israel does not have to bomb civilian populations, regardless of who they hope to "get" in the process. They CHOOSE to bomb civilian populations. If there is a human between you and your target, don't shoot. It's as simple as that.

Palestinian death toll in Gaza reaches 1,000 | World news | guardian.co.uk

 

[Shermana]

SO if they have a right to a state, why not make it Jordan which is 20x the same as underpopulated and is 80% of Palestine? Because that would make it much more difficult to destroy the Jewish state.

 

[Alceste]

SO if they have a right to a state, why not make it Jordan which is 20x the same as underpopulated and is 80% of Palestine? Because that would make it much more difficult to destroy the Jewish state.

Fairness. Why should they have to move anywhere?

 

[Father Heathen]

FH, as far as behaving like animals is concerned:



AFP: Palestinian children 'victims of settler violence'

Can I assume you are OK with settlers shooting Palestinian children because you think they have better reasons?

Yes, I want to skinny dip in a swimming pool filled with the freshly squeezed blood of palestinian babies.

No, I do not condone unprovoked violence against innocent civilians.

 

[England my lionheart]

What post?

And who has denied Israels right to exist? No one so far.

Well Hamas has

 

[Father Heathen]

Fairness. Why should they have to move anywhere?

No one should have to move, but why reside on the soil of a nation you have no desire to be a part of?

 

[Alceste]

Yes, I want to skinny dip in a swimming pool filled with the freshly squeezed blood of palestinian babies.

No, I do not condone unprovoked violence against innocent civilians.

But it is OK when the IDF and Israeli settlers do it? Or at least MORE OK when Israelis do it? Isn't that what you said? It's not killing that matters, but the reasons?

 

[Alceste]

No one should have to move, but why reside on the soil of a nation you have no desire to be a part of?

Perhaps because you have a good chance of establishing a nation of your own on that soil?

I still don't know who all these Arab Israelis who don't want Israeli citizenship are supposed to be. Do you consider the occupied territories to be part of Israel?

 

[sadiq]

Heard the good News?
Israel Dismantles; World's Problems End

 

[Shermana]

Fairness. Why should they have to move anywhere?

Of course you'd have no problem if the PA kicked out the Jewish settlers which is their well-stated intention. So what's wrong with Plan Jordan? A one time international develop budget of less than $80 billion could fix this whole thing once and for all with farms and houses and irrigation projects all along the East Bank of the Jordan river for 8 million people. Why should Jordan not have to do anything if its 80% of Palestine?

 

[Father Heathen]

But it is OK when the IDF and Israeli settlers do it?

I never implied that it was ever okay for anyone to carry out unprovoked attacks upon innocent civilians. My point was that a mere kill count alone doesn't determine who is more unethical/immoral. By your logic a security guard who kills 4 bank robbers is more evil than a man who killed 1 child for fun just because he killed more people.

Or at least MORE OK when Israelis do it? Isn't that what you said? It's not killing that matters, but the reasons?

I said.. "Because more than that factors into morality, such as who was killed and why." But you conveniently left that part out. It doesn't bode well for your argument if it requires to you to put words in other people's mouths or to twist what they have said.

 

[JacobEzra.]

SO if they have a right to a state, why not make it Jordan which is 20x the same as underpopulated and is 80% of Palestine? Because that would make it much more difficult to destroy the Jewish state.

Why should Palestinians have to leave their homes in Gaza and West Bank?

 

[Alceste]

I never implied that it was ever okay for anyone to carry out unprovoked attacks upon innocent civilians. My point was that a mere kill count alone doesn't determine who is more unethical/immoral. By your logic a security guard who kills 4 bank robbers is more evil than a man who killed 1 child for fun just because he killed more people.

I said.. "Because more than that factors into morality, such as who was killed and why." But you conveniently left that part out. It doesn't bode well for your argument if it requires to you to put words in other people's mouths or to twist what they have said.

Look, you clearly believe Israel has more and better reasons for killing Palestinians than the other way around. You've stated it enough times that your position is unambiguous. However, the large majority of Palestinians killed or injured by Israeli violence are civilian non-combatants, including children. Also, a large proportion of the unprovoked violence and against and killing of Palestinians is at the hands of settlers, who effectively enjoy legal immunity from prosecution and the support of the IDF, but have no law enforcement authority and no apparent reason to attack Palestinians but racism and avarice.

So I can only assume that either you are not aware of those facts, or you believe Jews have reasonable grounds for murdering Arab civilians and children, but that for some reason Arabs do not have reasonable grounds for the same behavior.

 

[Father Heathen]

Perhaps because you have a good chance of establishing a nation of your own on that soil?

Why can't they do that with Jordan's soil?

I still don't know who all these Arab Israelis who don't want Israeli citizenship are supposed to be. Do you consider the occupied territories to be part of Israel?

You don't suppose that it might possibly be the ones who deny Israel's legitimacy as a sovereign nation or perhaps the ones who want to take a slice to start their own state? Also, launching rockets at your fellow countrymen, or blowing them up with suicide bombs doesn't seem like a very "patriotic" thing for a citizen to do.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Well Hamas has

No one in this thread. At least I haven't.

And Zionist say Palestine has no right to exist.

Point be?

 

[Father Heathen]

Look, you clearly believe Israel has more and better reasons for killing Palestinians than the other way around. You've stated it enough times that your position is unambiguous. However, the large majority of Palestinians killed or injured by Israeli violence are civilian non-combatants, including children. Also, a large proportion of the unprovoked violence and against and killing of Palestinians is at the hands of settlers, who effectively enjoy legal immunity from prosecution and the support of the IDF, but have no law enforcement authority and no apparent reason to attack Palestinians but racism and avarice.

So I can only assume that either you are not aware of those facts, or you believe Jews have reasonable grounds for murdering Arab civilians and children, but that for some reason Arabs do not have reasonable grounds for the same behavior.

No, such things are inexcusable and unjustifiable. If true then Israel's military actions are just as abhorrent as palestinian terrorism.

I still say that Israel is the lesser evil in the middle east by virtue of its pluralism, secularism, religious freedom, gay and women's rights and democracy.

 

[Alceste]

Why can't they do that with Jordan's soil?

Why should they have to? The US and the international community support a return to 1967 borders with negotiated land swaps for a two-state solution. Palestinians have nothing to gain by giving up their land to Zionists and moving to Jordan, and everything to lose. Besides, who is to say that Israel won't simply expand their "security perimeter" into Jordan once they gain full control of the Palestinian territories?

You don't suppose that it might possibly be the ones who deny Israel's legitimacy as a sovereign nation or perhaps the ones who want to take a slice to start their own state? Also, launching rockets at your fellow countrymen, or blowing them up with suicide bombs doesn't seem like a very "patriotic" thing for a citizen to do.

Sorry, but are you saying that you DO consider the occupied territories to be part of Israel? You don't endorse the position of the United Nations, which considers them to be Palestinian territories under military occupation?

I can't make sense of the bold parts above otherwise.

 

[Alceste]

No, such things are inexcusable and unjustifiable. If true then Israel's military actions are just as abhorrent as palestinian terrorism.

I still say that Israel is the lesser evil in the middle east by virtue of its pluralism, secularism, religious freedom, gay and women's rights and democracy.

"If true?" You doubt that the majority of casualties of IDF and settler violent are non-combatants?

Israel is an apartheid state. There is one law for Jews and another for everybody else. I don't think such an entity can be considered "pluralistic".

Like you, I find the domestic policies of Israel less offensive than the policies of many Arab states. However, my opinion on that subject is entirely divorced from my opinion on who gets to ignore international human rights legislation and indiscriminately kill civilians. (Which, IMO, is nobody, no matter what the reason).

 

[Reverend Rick]

How many treaties and concessions has Israel made in the name of peace that where violated?