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Israel dragging USA down

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Since one is addressing an unrelenting and delusional defending position, in what other way is it possible to address it except by pointing out each and every infraction?

Or even what would be the problem with pointing that out in the first place when facing such position?
A reasonable comment, as always, Badran. I guess what bothers me about these unrelenting attacks on Israel is that they rarely are fair and balanced. As one poster commented, you get one-side or the other with little, to no, attempt to present the bigger picture of what is actually going on. It's small wonder that the area is so problematic.

I wonder how long, dear Alceste, for example, would tolerate someone hitting her with a pea-shooter as she strode by going about her daily activities. Likewise I am curious how much of Canada she would be willing to give up to settle native land claims. In theory, the whole country belongs to the people of the First Nations.

What really gets my goat is that there seems to be different standards of what is expected from each side. Because Israel is a relatively successful country, it is Israel that is expected to give up lands acquired through the unwise military adventurism conducted by her neighbors. Oddly, there was no bickering about East Jerusalem while it was under Jordanian control. The "Palestinians" certainly were not making demands on the Jordanian government for control of East Jerusalem.

No, that's only happened since Israel took the city during the 1967 war. In theory, if Israel was to surrender East Jerusalem, it would give it back to Jordan - not to the Palestinians.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
A reasonable comment, as always, Badran. I guess what bothers me about these unrelenting attacks on Israel is that they rarely are fair and balanced. As one poster commented, you get one-side or the other with little, to no, attempt to present the bigger picture of what is actually going on. It's small wonder that the area is so problematic.

I wonder how long, dear Alceste, for example, would tolerate someone hitting her with a pea-shooter as she strode by going about her daily activities. Likewise I am curious how much of Canada she would be willing to give up to settle native land claims. In theory, the whole country belongs to the people of the First Nations.

What really gets my goat is that there seems to be different standards of what is expected from each side. Because Israel is a relatively successful country, it is Israel that is expected to give up lands acquired through the unwise military adventurism conducted by her neighbors. Oddly, there was no bickering about East Jerusalem while it was under Jordanian control. The "Palestinians" certainly were not making demands on the Jordanian government for control of East Jerusalem.

No, that's only happened since Israel took the city during the 1967 war. In theory, if Israel was to surrender East Jerusalem, it would give it back to Jordan - not to the Palestinians.

FYI, I favour sovereignty and very generous land claims settlements, and have at times worked to help those who seek them. I did a lot of research on the issue in the 90s and learned that Canada does not have a solid legal basis for claiming ownership of most of BC, even in the context of our own laws, never mind international law. Such treaties as exist in BC were often forged by an official who thought the natives were all going to die of small pox anyway. Our constitution explicitly enshrines the proclamations of King George, one of which designates everything West of the Rockies as sovereign indigenous territory. Given these factors and the appalling economic and social conditions on most reservations, I feel our settlements have not been generous enough, and that the Indian Act is an outrage.

So there you go. Whatever you want to talk about, I'll talk about. This thread is about Israel, though, right?
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Quote=Tellurian;2599727]USA and Israel against the rest of the world seems to be the upcoming situation at the UN. Is the USA reputation going to be damaged by opposing the Palestinian bid for statehood?

U.S. Takes Lonely Path In Opposing All Forms Of Palestinian Recognition [/quote]

IMO its a good call,negotiation should be direct between Israel and Palestine before going to the UN who ironically both Hamas and Fatah rejected out of hand from any influence in negotiations and refused to recognise the 1948 State Declaration of Israel,really the PA are making mugs of a lot of people by taking this route.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Question, how do you negotiate with someone who does not even recognise your right to exist?

How do you peacefully coexist with someone who wants each and every one of you dead?

How do you change the minds of people who have so much hatred in their hearts?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
One last point, why has not the Muslim community shown more compassion for the Palestinians?

No one has offered them any hospitality in their home countries. Why?


Kuwait expelled 450,000 Palestinians at the end of the Gulf War in 1991. Prior to that expulsion, Palestinians made up nearly 30 percent of Kuwait's population.

Jordan continues to refuse citizenship applications from Palestinians -they absolutely will not allow a Palestinian to become a citizen, no way, no how. In fact, in the case of Palestinians who have in the past been able to become citizens, their Jordanian citizenship has been REVOKED.

Lebanon greatly restricts the basic rights of Palestinian refugees. They are denied access to Lebanese healthcare. They are not allowed to own property, and have to have special permission to even leave their camp. They are not alllowed to work in most job categories. Amnesty International has decried their treatment repeatedly.

The Arab League has instructed it's members to deny citizenship rights to Palestinians.

In the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 13 declares that "Everyone has the right to leave any country including his own, and to return to his country." Every single Arab League state voted AGAINST this resolution!

The Arab States are no friends to the Palestinians - in part because loosely affiliated people in the Palestine area opposed heavy handed Muslim rule in the 19th century.

In fact, Palestinians have NEVER ruled themselves - they were dominated by the Ottoman Empire, then by the British, then by Jordan and Egypt, and of course Israel.

The "Palestinian Identity" is a fairly new concept, dating back to the early twentieth century. Prior to that time frame, the people living in the Palestine area identified themselves via religious and clan affiliation. In fact, genetically speaking, most Palestinians are descended from Levantine Christians and Jews, though over the centuries many converted to Islam. Before the 1948 war, the term "Palestinian" meant ANYONE from "Palestine," - including Jews living in the area.

The British Census of 1922 registered 752,048 inhabitants in Palestine, consisting of 660,641 Palestinian Arabs (Christian and Muslim Arabs), 83,790 Palestinian Jews, and 7,617 persons belonging to other groups. The corresponding percentage breakdown is 87% Christian and Muslim Arab and 11% Jewish. Bedouin were not counted in the census, but a 1930 British study estimated their number at 70,860.

In 1968 the Palestine National Council defined "Palestinian" as "those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father – whether in Palestine or outside it – is also a Palestinian."

(Various Wiki articles as source.)

I just thought this was all pretty interesting.

I firmly believe that the ONLY reason that the Arab states "support" Palestinian rights (and some pretty poor support that is) is because they want to see the complete and total dissolution of the state of Israel. They couldn't care less about the actual human rights of Palestinians.

The Palestinians are a pawn. I feel sorry for them - they are a desperate people who are not wanted by anyone - but in their desperation must allow themselves to be used. Their Arab supporters will no doubt discard them like unneeded trash once their own political motives are fulfilled.
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
By the way, on the topic of US aid to Israel, I have this advice to the state of Israel, from Someone a lot more powerful than I am:

"What sorrow awaits those who look to Egypt for help, trusting their horses, chariots, and charioteers and depending on the strength of human armies instead of looking to the LORD, the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 31:1

In a perfect world, I'd like to see the US pull completely out of Middle East shenanigans, and let them all stew in their own juices.

Of course, then we'd still be the whipping boy, because we'd then be accused of NOT stepping in, and "allowing" further human rights violations. Damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Can you just imagine the atrocities that would be perpetrated against peoples, clans, and religious groups across the Middle East if the West simply backed out and said, "Alright, guys - have at it. May the best man win."

Who could sit by and watch that bloodbath? Who would you support in those shifting sands?
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
May I please be forgiven for saying this, that is the only solution.

The bigger question is, why would we believe there was ever a possibility for peace in the region in the first place?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Israel pays back it's loans from the US with grants from the US.

'Nuff said. I mean, this **** is crazy on the surface. But is it really...

As for the Middle East, it's a shame there's so much oil in the hands of so many renegades. As the Queen of Soul says, "Who's zoomin' who?"

And don't look to the US as the sole importer of that oil - half of the oil supply in the world comes from that region, and the US receives roughly 25 percent of US supply from the Middle East. HALF of the oil used by the EU comes from the Middle East, and 90 percent of Japan's oil comes from there. Europe receives 85 percent of Libya's oil. Even Canada, with it's vast oil reserves, still imports about 40 percent of it's oil from the Middle East. Go figgur. Looks like my husband's job in the oifield is pretty secure.

According to the U.S. Geological Survey over 50 percent of the undiscovered reserves of oil and 30 percent of gas are concentrated in the region primarily in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, UAE and Libya.

Wow, good times, good times.

Looks like they've got us by the ying yang, as my grandmother used to say (it took me awhile to figure out what she meant by that).

I'm not kidding myself - I don't think the rest of the world would much care what happened to Jews OR Palestinians if it weren't for all this black gold sitting under the feet of their next door neighbors.

The West never has to "win" a "war" in the Middle East. All we have to do to keep the oil flowing is to support some form of chaos and instability in the region - which includes support of Israel.

The ironic thing is this - the very countries who claim to be so supportive of Palestinians and Iraqis and Afghanis, etc etc etc don't seem to see the long term effects of complete control of half the world's oil supply by the likes of Saddam Hussein, Ghaddafi, and however you spell that Iranian fellow's name.

Do you really want those yahoos and their ilk in control of your economy?


qaddafi.jpg


iran-june-18-7-2.jpg


14023.jpg


saddam_hussein.jpeg


Call me naive, but I'd like to see us do all of the following:

Invest in researching and developing alternative energy sources.

Continue to invest in developing the vast oil and natural gas reserves that we have under our own feet.

Get the hell out of the Middle East. Let them find someone else to sell their oil to. Hmmmmm, like China...Russia...wait a minute...hey, this **** is complicated....
 
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Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
As in athletics, believing you can win is necessary to win, even if it isn't true.

I read slick willie's 2 volume book years ago and it goes into great detail of him negotiating a peace deal.

Clinton really wanted to close the deal before his presidency was over.

IF ANYONE TRIED, THIS MAN GAVE IT HIS ALL. HE WAS AS MOTIVATED AS ANY PERSON COULD EVER BE.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I read slick willie's 2 volume book years ago and it goes into great detail of him negotiating a peace deal.
Clinton really wanted to close the deal before his presidency was over.
IF ANYONE TRIED, THIS MAN GAVE IT HIS ALL. HE WAS AS MOTIVATED AS ANY PERSON COULD EVER BE.
Clearly, he was the wrong Willie!
This one is far slicker.....
[youtube]Z9_jIa2WADc[/youtube]
Grease me up woman! - YouTube


It might also be that Clinton is the wrong guy because of religion.
I find that Xians to generally favor Jews over Muslims.
Perhaps we need a heathen to see them in a balanced & solutionagenic fashion, eh?
(I'm not volunteering, btw.)
 
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Shermana

Heretic
I read slick willie's 2 volume book years ago and it goes into great detail of him negotiating a peace deal.

Clinton really wanted to close the deal before his presidency was over.

IF ANYONE TRIED, THIS MAN GAVE IT HIS ALL. HE WAS AS MOTIVATED AS ANY PERSON COULD EVER BE.

Even Clinton complained about the Palestinian lack of willingness to negotiate fairly, Willie is leaps and bounds ahead of pug-face Carter.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Question, how do you negotiate with someone who does not even recognise your right to exist?

How do you peacefully coexist with someone who wants each and every one of you dead?

How do you change the minds of people who have so much hatred in their hearts?

Are you talking about how you feel about Palestinians, or how you speculate Palestinians feel about Israelis? Hard to tell the difference sometimes.
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
"If true?" You doubt that the majority of casualties of IDF and settler violent are non-combatants?

Israel is an apartheid state. There is one law for Jews and another for everybody else. I don't think such an entity can be considered "pluralistic".

Like you, I find the domestic policies of Israel less offensive than the policies of many Arab states. However, my opinion on that subject is entirely divorced from my opinion on who gets to ignore international human rights legislation and indiscriminately kill civilians. (Which, IMO, is nobody, no matter what the reason).
Now that is so laughable, it's funny.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
which part did Israel violate?

Article 3 (torture, extra-judicial detainment and execution, abuse of dignity), 13 (mistreatment based on religion and political opinion), 32 (torture, again), 33 (collective punishment), 47-48 (transportation of its own population into occupied territory and the displacement of protected persons)...

A better question is what section DOESN'T Israel violate?
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
Article 3 (torture, extra-judicial detainment and execution, abuse of dignity),
since when are the those arrested noncombatants? they claim to be at war. I haven't seen any lay down their arms.
13 (mistreatment based on religion and political opinion),
They are only arresting based on political action, not political opinion. Further, to assume that they Israeli government is biased is a false statement.
32 (torture, again), Palestinians are mot bound by the convention, therefore Protected Persons is not an adequate defense.
33 (collective punishment),
Again. Not protected persons
47-48 (transportation of its own population into occupied territory and the displacement of protected persons)...
the underlying theme with this particular convention is "Protected persons."
A better question is what section DOESN'T Israel violate?[/quote]
so still the question remains: which part of the Geneva Convention did they violate? And in what cases?
 

Tamar

I am Jewish.
They were in international waters. The blockade itself is illegal. We could argue about this, but it's pointless. If they hadn't boarded the ship looking armed and dangerous (in international waters) they would not have been attacked. They are to blame for the consequences.


The blockade is legal:

UN Palmer report: blockade of Gaza legal - The Drum Opinion (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

The release of the United Nations Palmer report into last year's flotilla incident aboard the Mavi Marmara has vindicated Israel by finding that its naval blockade of the Gaza strip is legal under international law. Moreover, Israel has the right to enforce that blockade - including in international waters. It has also rebutted many of the false claims and assumptions that have been made about the flotilla incident and about the broader situation in Gaza.

The Palmer report unequivocally found that: "Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law."

The Turkish ship was nothing but a provocation and those aboard were armed. They knew and were looking for a confrontation and they got one.
 

Tamar

I am Jewish.
The point being, they started it. Everybody agrees they started it, regardless of whether they think they were justified in starting it or not.

Therefore, :p

No, Turkey started it. They wanted a confrontation and they got one. Everyone who agrees that those on the ship with weapons were somehow the victims have clearly forgotten that Gaza is run by Hamas a terrorist organization that is bent on the destruction of Israel and have and still does carry out terrorist attacks and shoots numerous rockets into Gaza.
 
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