Israel Fires on Humanitarian Aid Flotilla

[Revoltingest]

It was certainly injected to this thread by a Muslim member, who then went to inform us that 'there were not even 6 million Jews in the world during the holocaust'.

Well that happens. Muslims have opinions too. Sometimes we even agree on things. As for the number of Jews in this or that situation,
I don't get involved in counting. For the record though, I think there were way too many Jews, gypsies, homos, & other people of whom
I'm ignorant who were murdered in that holocaust. And, yes, there were a lot.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In brief, I'm not anti-Jew but I am anti-Israel and Zionism.

You're a virulently ignorant holocaust denier on a mission.

 

[Levite]

If the "Palestinian" people would just lay down their weapons and work towards a realistic, lasting peace, the blockade would become unnecessary. Ban Ki-moon is a putz.

/win!

:yes:

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

A good piece worth a read: http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/

The problem, of course, is that this is not about facts. When you have idiots like Turkey's Ahmet Davutoglu compare the flotilla fiasco to 9/11 you can be sure that you've entered a well-traveled antisemitic twilight zone. No, it's not about truth - it's about an effective blood-lust of anti-Israeli hyperbole, and one enabled by operational incompetence.

Quite frankly, the Hamas peanut gallery can rot for all I care. It's important to expose its hypocrisy and blood-lust, but it's far more important in my opinion to honestly acknowledge and condemn the contemptible misleadership of the current Israeli regime.

 

[YmirGF]

Quite frankly, the Hamas peanut gallery can rot for all I care. It's important to expose its hypocrisy and blood-lust, but it's far more important in my opinion to honestly acknowledge and condemn the contemptible misleadership of the current Israeli regime.

It would be quite instructive of you to tell us whom you think would more suitable than Netanyahu.

 

[Levite]

It would be quite instructive of you to tell us whom you think would more suitable than Netanyahu.

Not that I am any fan of Bibi Netanyahu-- I think he's a p r i c k, and a lousy politician-- but I am also hard-pressed to think of who is out there in the Israeli political scene that actually could be an effective leader. It seems like the great Israeli leaders have all died off, and a new generation of greats has not yet taken the stage.

For the moment, I think no matter who's in charge, we have to deal with the fact that it will be someone subpar, and ill-equipped to deal with the situation vigorously.

 

[kai]

If the "Palestinian" people would just lay down their weapons and work towards a realistic, lasting peace, the blockade would become unnecessary. Ban Ki-moon is a putz.

Hamas could negotiate the blockade away very easily if it really wanted to. But to be honest why would it?

 

[sandandfoam]

In all sincerity - what do you think Israel's response should have been - IF this was, for the sake of argument - orchestrated and supported by radical elements?

I think this piece from Haaretz covers it:

In 1988, when the PLO organized a ship named "The Return" to be sent to Israel with Palestinian refugees, Israel chose a different method to stop it. It sent Mossad agents and Naval commandos to Cyprus to sabotage the ship before the passengers had embarked. The ship was damaged but no one was hurt.
Israel should have considered a similar approach with the Gaza flotilla. But apparently the days in which Israeli agents could operate freely in friendly countries are gone.
There was another possibility. During Ehud Olmert's term as prime minister, Israel permitted a lone aid ship, filled with supplies and activists, to enter Gaza. The skies did not fall on Israel in the wake of this.
The Israeli government could have acted similarly this time. No disaster would have occurred. The boats would have landed, the supplies would have been unloaded and the activists would have disembarked.
So what? You may argue that this would have set a precedent. But I argue that if Hamas had tried to do the same thing again in the future, Israel would still have had the ability to
operate differently and outsmart Hamas.
As a last resort, it would also have been possible to simply sabotage the motors of the boats, halting their voyage without having to seize control of the ships. Instead of this, the Israeli government preferred to take control of the ships by force.
Apparently Israel, which prides itself as having the best intelligence in the world, should have known better that there were violent elements aboard one of the boats, equipped iron bars, knifes and slingshots. Had Israel known this, it would have probably used more appropriate ways to storm boat, to avoid death and injuries. And that did not happen. Israel has played into Hamas' hands. It's not the fault of the young soldiers who obeyed the orders of their commanders. The responsibility lies with the cabinet and the military planners.

ANALYSIS / Israel has forgotten the lessons of the Exodus - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

 

[Tanuki]

You're a virulently ignorant holocaust denier on a mission.

If you actually look at posts I've put up, I don't deny and have never denied the holocaust. And I have even stated that.

 

[DeitySlayer]

If you actually look at posts I've put up, I don't deny and have never denied the holocaust. And I have even stated that.

Neither have you stated sources which demonstrate a figure considerably lower than the 6 million-ish mark.

 

[Tanuki]

Neither have you stated sources which demonstrate a figure considerably lower than the 6 million-ish mark.

I said to you last night that I wouldn't. I really can't be bothered continually going over this. However, I won't let anyone call me a holocaust denier when I am not, and haven't once denied the holocaust on this forum, or any other.

 

[DeitySlayer]

I said to you last night that I wouldn't. I really can't be bothered continually going over this. However, I won't let anyone call me a holocaust denier when I am not, and haven't once denied the holocaust on this forum, or any other.

I never have, and the fact that you won't is just dodging the question. If you could quote me someone with expertise in the field of European demographics, who was not linked to the Nazi regime or anti-Semitic elements...

 

[Caladan]

Well that happens. Muslims have opinions too.

Just as long as the rest of us understand your standards, when a Muslim member posts ridiculously false information to support the Iranian revisionism of the holocaust its 'just an opinion', but somehow its part of a Jewish scheme to milk others through the holocaust.
lovely.

 

[kai]

I think this piece from Haaretz covers it:


ANALYSIS / Israel has forgotten the lessons of the Exodus - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

to be hones i think Israel is damned what ever action it takes.

Sabotage foreign ships ? on Foreign soil? in Foreign waters? in International Waters?

If it let the ships go into Gaza who is going to check the cargo etc?


It must end the "siege" and yet its security is paramount.

 

[sandandfoam]

to be hones i think Israel is damned what ever action it takes.

Sabotage foreign ships ? on Foreign soil? in Foreign waters? in International Waters?

If it let the ships go into Gaza who is going to check the cargo etc?


It must end the "siege" and yet its security is paramount.

Maybe it is damned either way Kai, but the course of action suggested above is at least defensible.
No one dies and Israel doesn't appear brutish and incompetent.

 

[kai]

Maybe it is damned either way Kai, but the course of action suggested above is at least defensible.
No one dies and Israel doesn't appear brutish and incompetent.

well i dont think you can guarantee no one dies with sabotaging ships in port or elsewhere (remember the Rainbow Warrior?)

To be honest there were 6 ships boarded , 5 peacefully the film clip of the soldiers being attacked seemed pretty brutish to me and i am not in the least bit surprised people were killed.

Their primary weapons were non fatal ( paint ball guns etc) but once it became clear that they were being overwhelmed and their lives were in danger they would have no option but to use secondary lethal weapons.

Honestly for a humanitarian mission there was no need to attack the soldiers they would all have been taken to Israel deported and all with valuable press coverage. I wonder why they attacked the soldiers on that particular ship?

Yes its a disaster and totally unavoidable but sanction busting is a risky business.

 

[Caladan]

Honestly for a humanitarian mission there was no need to attack the soldiers they would all have been taken to Israel deported and all with valuable press coverage. I wonder why they attacked the soldiers on that particular ship?

I think the piece (through link) that Levite posted answers this question and some of the questions posed by stephen earlier in the thread.

 

[kai]

I think the piece (through link) that Levite posted answers this question and some of the questions posed by stephen earlier in the thread.

Ah yes, thanks for that

 

[kai]

When Israel's wrongs are brought to light, they deserve condemnation as much as those of the Palestinians, but that does not mean automatically that in any situation the default position ought to be Israel is guilty until proven innocent. In the case of the Freedom flotilla, Israel made repeated efforts during recent weeks to assist the activists in their mission and avoid bloodshed.

Israel had no choice over Gaza flotilla | Seth Freedman | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk


It seems to me,m that default position is becoming more and more prevalent

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

to be hones i think Israel is damned what ever action it takes.

Sabotage foreign ships ? on Foreign soil? in Foreign waters? in International Waters?

If it let the ships go into Gaza who is going to check the cargo etc?


It must end the "siege" and yet its security is paramount.

I think it was a Brilliant move by the protesters. It seems they were just weighting for the commandos to show up. The deaths were on a Turkish ship. This might be just the final blow to a very important relationship for the Israelis. The whole world is aghast at killing people on an aid ship. Israel came out on the short end of the stick on this one. The protester may have lost their lives but it was a big blow to Israel and they know it.