Israel Fires on Humanitarian Aid Flotilla

[Smoke]

I think this piece from Haaretz covers it:

ANALYSIS / Israel has forgotten the lessons of the Exodus - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

If Israel had done any of those things, there still would have been an outcry. The press and the public are choosing to fall for the line put out by this pseudo-humanitarian group, even though it's obviously false.

Look, every single one of those people took his life in his hands when they embarked on this stupid voyage. They even admitted that humanitarianism wasn't their purpose. And yet this is being spun as if Israel attacked the Red Cross.

A few days ago Israel was being blamed for attacking peaceful, unarmed humanitarians. Now they're being blamed for not anticipating the violent fanaticism of those same "humanitarians." It really doesn't matter, does it? If you're determined to blame Israel for whatever the **** happens as a result of fundamentalist stupidity, you'll find a way to blame Israel.

If I were Netanyahu, I'd just sink the next flotilla. May as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Caladan, as you know I live in Texas and a few years ago the state ran an anti littering campaign with the slogan "Don't Mess with Texas."

I am going to have a bunch of bumper stickers made up that say "Don't Mess with Israel" and send them over to you, OK?

I mean - damn. DON'T MESS WITH ISRAEL. They're serious. They don't play around. If you threaten them, they are going to kick your ***, or die trying.

And I don't blame them.

At one time Israel was seen as unbeatable, today the Arab world looks at it a little differently. In the 2006 Lebanon War it was Hezbollah who came out victorious in the minds of many. They stopped Israel from achieving there military goals, picked up more political power in Lebanon, even received more support from the natural allies of Isreal the Lebanise Christians. They are experts at using the press. Al-Qaida kills reporters Hezbollah guards them. Hezbollah mess with Isreal and came out on top. Today Hezbollah is stronger because they picked a fight with Isreal.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

The flotilla was on international waters. It is illegal to board a ship on international waters by force. The ship was loaded with civilians who did not have weapons. Israeli commandos had guns and weapons. This is piracy and we let Israel get away with it why?
US and Israel say that an "independent" investigation by Israel is the correct approach. First off, it was a Turkish ship. Israeli commandos landed on Turkish soil by boarding that ship. I do not understand why the US blindly supports Israel.

 

[DeitySlayer]

The ship was loaded with civilians who did not have weapons.

I seriously beg to differ.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The ship was loaded with civilians who did not have weapons.

Gross willful ignorance ...

 

[Kathryn]

The ships were loaded with anti-Israel activists who were looking for a fight. And they got one.

Note to would-be activists - This particular line of work can be extremely dangerous.

 

[DeitySlayer]

The ships were loaded with anti-Israel activists who were looking for a fight. And they got one.

Note to would-be activists - This particular line of work can be extremely dangerous.

Israel was equally at fault for walking into the fight, in an illegal manner in international waters, for not scouting out the situtation with their famed military intelligence, which in turn led to loss of life of both sides.

 

[sandandfoam]

If you're determined to blame Israel for whatever the **** happens as a result of fundamentalist stupidity, you'll find a way to blame Israel.

I'm not determined to blame Israel for anything.
I think the firing of rockets at Israel is criminal and wrong. I think Hamas are murderous thugs.
I also think Israeli forces have no right to board a ship in international waters and kill anyone.
I think the Israeli government made a right mess of this. They are steering a country whose back is to the wall and they are steering it in an incompetent fashion.

It is legitimate to disagree with Israeli government policy. There are lots of protests in democracies everywhere. One does not have to be a nut to protest. Protest is legitimate. Protestors are not entitled to use violence. Governments are not entitled to kill civilians.

 

[Kathryn]

My point though, Diety Slayer, was that these activists willfully provoked Israel - for DAYS beforehand.

Should Israel have reacted as they did? Probably not. But like I said in an earlier post, it's easy to play armchair quarterback now.

 

[sandandfoam]

The ships were loaded with anti-Israel activists who were looking for a fight. And they got one.

Note to would-be activists - This particular line of work can be extremely dangerous.

No excuse. Governments are not entitled to use lethal force at the drop of a hat. Government forces boarded the ships in international waters and they did the killing.
They had no legal right to board the ships and they had no legal right to kidnap or kill anyone.

Governments who operate to the same standards as the likes of Hamas deserve no respect.

 

[Kathryn]

If I hold up Hamas, and then hold up the Israeli government, there's no doubt in my mind which one deserves the most respect, and the most support from the international community.

That being said, the Israeli government is not immune to mistakes, and shouldn't be immune to review of it's actions.

I'm sure there will be quite a bit of investigation, discussion, diatribe and repercussions of this event.

 

[Valjean]

OK, here's what's making the internet rounds so far:
Israel maintains the blockade is legal, recognised internationally, and that they had a right to intercept and inspect ships headed to Gaza. Here's Israel's position: Israel’s Maritime Blockade Explained | IsraelPolitik

From the videos I've seen it appears the aid convoy was warned that gaza ports were closed and that they would be permitted to deliver their cargo via an alternate route.

This is not the first aid ship/fleet to have challenged the blockade. Others have been able to successfully deliver their cargo after inspection and under Israeli supervision.

The other aid ships were boarded without incident. The larger Mavi Marmara could not be safely boarded ship-to ship. The Israeli inspectors/pilots rapelled down from a helicopter, armed with paint guns and personal sidearms (pistols) and were immediatly attacked by a mob with potentially deadly, albeit makeshift, weapons.

They were boarded in international waters. Israel claims this was the most feasible point of interdiction, and entirely legal.Their route would not have taken them through Israeli waters, and Israel claims Hamas planned to intercept the aid fleet as they approached port with "hundreds of vessels," rendering inspection at that point impossible and hazardous.

The boarding party was either an inspection party or were to take the helm and steer the ship to the port of Ashod, or both (accounts vary).

The fleet's cargo had been inspected, and passengers searched, before departure.
Israel claims a "cache" of bullet proof vests, night vision goggles and gas masks were found on board the Marmara, and someone had evidently been able to slip a Jambiya through the inspection. There are also some claims of two pistols being found on board.

Initially it seemed to me that a violent Israeli overreaction had occurred, however, it now appears the brouhaha was initiated by a group of thugs who had somehow sneaked on board the Turkish ship disguised as peace activists.
Now I'm outraged. There is no excuse for violence by peace activists. It's an egregious violation of the rules of Satyagraha. An activist must never resort to violence, even in self defense.
The aid activists can no longer claim the moral high ground. Their whole position as peace activists or aid workers has been undermined.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

My point though, Diety Slayer, was that these activists willfully provoked Israel - for DAYS beforehand.

Should Israel have reacted as they did? Probably not. But like I said in an earlier post, it's easy to play armchair quarterback now.

During the Civil Rights movement there was more than a little training and preparation. We trained on how to deal responsibly and nonviolently with the police. We trained on how to respond effectively and nonviolently to racist attack. And we trained on how to deal with provocateurs. It was something about which we were constantly concerned. And we were, for the most part, naive kids.

The flotilla was a stunt and a provocation. To presume that it could be boarded without incident was irresponsibly amateurish.

 

[Kathryn]

Here are some video clips (and translations of what the people are saying) from the Middle East Media Research Institute.

These clips show the "peace activists" chanting songs of martyrdom and "Oh Jews,l Oh Jews, the army of Muhammed will return!" before the flotilla departed on the mission, as well as an Egyptian expert on international law claiming that it is the international community's RESPONSIBILITY to provide Palestinians, not only with humanitarian aid, but also WEAPONS for their revolution.

MEMRI - Middle East Media Research Institute

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It would be quite instructive of you to tell us whom you think would more suitable than Netanyahu.

I'll ignore the sarcasm and simply admit that I do not know, and that I sincerely hope that the Israeli people prove themselves willing and capable of making that determination. I suspect it will be very difficult, particularly since a natural response is to circle the wagons in the face of antisemitic hyperbole. I'll also note that I'm sorry that you seem to think your comment relevant.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

Israel was equally at fault for walking into the fight, in an illegal manner in international waters, for not scouting out the situtation with their famed military intelligence, which in turn led to loss of life of both sides.

Loss of life of both sides? I beg to differ.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Loss of life of both sides? I beg to differ.

As someone who childishly proclaims his religion as "Counter-Stupidism" you seem intent on proving yourself an apostate. That you find something to grin about in all this is more than a little despicable.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

Here are some video clips (and translations of what the people are saying) from the Middle East Media Research Institute.

These clips show the "peace activists" chanting songs of martyrdom and "Oh Jews,l Oh Jews, the army of Muhammed will return!" before the flotilla departed on the mission, as well as an Egyptian expert on international law claiming that it is the international community's RESPONSIBILITY to provide Palestinians, not only with humanitarian aid, but also WEAPONS for their revolution.

MEMRI - Middle East Media Research Institute

Yes, they are chanting songs of martyrdom. But what of it? Don't the religious chant about the second coming of Christ and everyone being slaughtered? I find it mind bending that one's own religion makes sense to oneself, but any other religion is either always violent or wrong.

Further, according to your link, the people who were being interviewed simply said "God willing, we will reach gaza or martyrdom". I do not understand how this can be construed as terrorism.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

As someone who childishly proclaims his religion as "Counter-Stupidism" you seem intent on proving yourself an apostate. That you find something to grin about in all this is more than a little despicable.

It was intended for deityslayer in response to something he said earlier about begging to differ. I do not find murder amusing. Quit the fake outrage.

 

[Kathryn]

An interesting article on the flotilla escapade from the Asia Times:

Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs

Excerpts:

Although it is true, as the New York Times misleadingly noted, that the Turkish sponsor of the flotilla - Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH - The Foundation of Humanitarian Relief) - does not appear on the

United States State Department's list of terrorist organizations, IHH belongs to an umbrella organization that US authorities have identified as a terrorist financier, namely Union of Good (Ittilaf al-Kheir).

Jonathan Schanzer, a former US government official specializing in terrorist financing, provides the details and links to the relevant US government documents in a post at the Weekly Standard blog [2]. Schanzer quotes US Treasury documents that report that the Union of Good "compensated Hamas terrorists by providing payments to the families of suicide bombers. One of [the charities], the al-Salah Society, previously identified as a key support node for Hamas, was designated in August 2007 ... The Society employed a number of members of the Hamas military wing and supported Hamas-affiliated combatants during the first Intifada."

Turkey's secular government of a decade ago banned the IHH from contributing to earthquake relief because of its terrorist ties, as Caroline Glick observes in the Jerusalem Post.

Israeli authorities offered to allow the flotilla to land at the Israeli port of Ashdod and ship its cargo of humanitarian aid to Gaza overland after appropriate security inspection; the flotilla refused.

Nonetheless, the international press persist in describing the flotilla as a humanitarian aid convey rather than as a transparent provocation by terrorist organizations, and the governments of the world will click their tongues hypocritically over the Israeli action.

Evidently, Israel has trouble accepting the reality on the ground, just as other governments do. There is not going to be a peace negotiation, but rather a war, and that the war will be terrible and bloody. Israel has lost Turkey as an ally; the United States, for that matter, has lost Turkey as an ally, as the leaders of Ankara compete with the mullahs of Tehran for the leadership of Islamism.

I don't agree with the entire article, but it makes for an interesting read.