Israel-Gaza : "Netanyahu vows no Palestinian state ..."

[metis]

If Hamas does not represent Palestinians yet the Palestinians can't effectively make themselves curb or repudiate Hamas nor present some alternate representative, it becomes difficult to understand how a Palestinian State would be possible and advisable.

Actually, it does as they voted for them in 2006 as the Palestinians in Gaza rejected the Palestinian Authority option. Elections obviously have consequences.

 

[metis]

It is tempting to think that utter contempt for the Netanyahu regime translates into enthusiasm for a 2-State solution, but that is far from the case. It's more like hating Donald Trump and embracing Nikki Haley.

Yes, I do think a two-state solution with the Palestinians having 100% control over all decisions is highly unlikely.

 

[LuisDantas]

Actually, it does as they voted for them in 2006 as the Palestinians in Gaza rejected the Palestinian Authority option. Elections obviously have consequences.

I definitely see your point. It is a legitimate and genuine stance.

But it can be challenged, and perhaps it should. Between what can fairly be called extraordinary later events and the simple fact that the election happened seventeen years ago, it would not be excessive to raise questions.

 

[libre]

Actually, it does as they voted for them in 2006 as the Palestinians in Gaza rejected the Palestinian Authority option. Elections obviously have consequences.

Elections do have consequences, and we shouldn't hold the bulk of Palestine to blame for the results of elections that happened before they were of voting age, given that the average Palestinian is under 20 years old.

If Bill Clinton had suspended elections indefinitely, I don't think it could be fairly used to argue that the citizens of the United States were legitimately represented by Clinton in 2024.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That is blatantly false.

That is blatantly true. Research your history before making false statements.

Hamas was elected in.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I've done it.
It's invisible to Zionists.

Only with antisemites.

 

[Revoltingest]

Only with antisemites.

You're admitting to being one?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

To me this is a significant question mark. Who are the Palestinians leadership, such as it may exist in recent years?

What and to which degree establishes their ability to speak on behalf of that group?

What can be done to legitimally fix any flaws or doubts on that matter?

The information that I have is, at best, incomplete.

Hamas barely won during Gazas last election 20 years (they won way more than they actually got like Trump and Republicans), and especially the very youthful average age of Gaza means the Palestinians of today are largely blameless in voting for Hamas. They didn't do it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We cannot, however somebody has to, and currently the only volunteer is Israel. Also I'm not talking about all of Palestine but only ungoverned Gaza. Its one thing to criticize this idea (of bringing in a governor from outside), but its another to not have any ideas.

It is, if course, entirely possible for Israel to use it's military to topple Hamas and impose and defend a free and open democratic process to take place that allows the Palestinians to decide their own future without the bullets and bombs of Hamas and IDF making everyone's life a hell.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You're admitting to being one?

Nope.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hamas barely won during Gazas last election 20 years (they won way more than they actually got like Trump and Republicans), and especially the very youthful average age of Gaza means the Palestinians of today are largely blameless in voting for Hamas. They didn't do it.

I don't particularly dispute any of this... but nor do I see much of a solution to the dilemma in there, either.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is, if course, entirely possible for Israel to use it's military to topple Hamas and impose and defend a free and open democratic process to take place that allows the Palestinians to decide their own future without the bullets and bombs of Hamas and IDF making everyone's life a hell.

I wish I had your certainty - and solid facts to sustain that.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Elections do have consequences, and we shouldn't hold the bulk of Palestine to blame for the results of elections that happened before they were of voting age, given that the average Palestinian is under 20 years old.

Wikipedia's 2006 Palestinian legislative election is a useful read. Note particularly:

An exit poll conducted by Near East Consulting on 15 February 2006 on voters participating in the 2006 PA elections revealed the following responses to major concerns:​

• Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition
• Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8%
• Under Hamas corruption will decrease: Yes – 78.1%; No – 21.9%
• Under Hamas internal security will improve: Yes – 67.8%; No – 32.2%
• Hamas government priorities: 1) Combatting corruption; 2) Ending security chaos; 3) Solving poverty/unemployment
• Support for Hamas' impact on the national interest: Positive – 66.7&; Negative - 28.5%
• Support for a national unity government?: Yes – 81.4%; no – 18.6%
• Rejection of Fatah's decision not to join a national unity government: Yes – 72.5%; No – 27.5%
• Satisfaction with election results: 64.2% satisfied; 35.8% dissatisfied

World Public Opinion summarised the election voting drivers as follows:​

​

The decisive victory of the militant Islamic group Hamas in last month's Palestinian legislative elections (winning 74 of 132 parliamentary seats) has raised the question of whether the Palestinian public has become aligned with Hamas' rejection of Israel's right to exist and its stated goal of creating an Islamic state covering all of historic Palestine, including what is now Israel. Hamas has come under increasing pressure to renounce its goal of eliminating Israel, but Hamas leaders have refused.​

​

However, new polling following the election indicated that two-thirds of Palestinians believed Hamas should change its policy of rejecting Israel's right to exist. Most also supported a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Post-election polls indicated that Hamas' victory was due largely to Palestinians' desire to end corruption in government rather than support for the organization's political platform. [emphasis added - JS]​

The later subsections found under Aftermath are particularly revealing (not to mention infuriating). So, for example,

The New York Times reported in February 2006 that "The United States and Israel are discussing ways to destabilize the Palestinian government so that newly elected Hamas officials will fail and elections will be called again. The intention is to starve the Palestinian Authority of money and international connections to the point where, some months from now, its president, Mahmoud Abbas, is compelled to call a new election."[63]​

While I agree that "we shouldn't hold the bulk of Palestine to blame for the results of elections that happened before they were of voting age," I have no problem holding Bush and Olmert culpable.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Actually, it does as they voted for them in 2006 as the Palestinians in Gaza rejected the Palestinian Authority option. Elections obviously have consequences.

See post #73.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I wish I had your certainty - and solid facts to sustain that.

The issue of using the military to bring about peace by forcing an election Hamas isn't welcome to amd Israel excuses itself from.
It is a fact England and Ireland had to leave the PIRA behind and hold elections that let people that decide their own future.
As fir the who voted for Hamas, that's just simple math. The barely won in a winner takes all system, but even if they dominated the last election 20 years ago its again simple math with the average ags of Gaza being so low being an inherent and automatic indication that the majority of Palestinians simply could not have voted for Hamas.

 

[LuisDantas]

The issue of using the military to bring about peace by forcing an election Hamas isn't welcome to amd Israel excuses itself from.
It is a fact England and Ireland had to leave the PIRA behind and hold elections that let people that decide their own future.
As fir the who voted for Hamas, that's just simple math. The barely won in a winner takes all system, but even if they dominated the last election 20 years ago its again simple math with the average ags of Gaza being so low being an inherent and automatic indication that the majority of Palestinians simply could not have voted for Hamas.

Quite true.

But have things changed for the better? I just don't know.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Quite true.

But have things changed for the better? I just don't know.

No. For the average Palestinian things have gotten much worse due to Hamas' provocations and Israels mass punishments.
But Israels bombings and repressions are having the same effect we see anywhere people are being repressed and that is that violence and repression against them primes them for radicalization.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It is, if course, entirely possible for Israel to use it's military to topple Hamas and impose and defend a free and open democratic process to take place that allows the Palestinians to decide their own future without the bullets and bombs of Hamas and IDF making everyone's life a hell.

There is a snag. According to some people: Netanyahu has criminal charges hanging over him, and so he is clinging to his position with greater than usual tenacity. He also betrayed his lefty coalition, so they won't ally with him. Therefore he has combined with all of the extreme right and rightist parties who are protecting him from a no-confidence vote (which would depose him). If deposed he'd have to fight the criminal charges in court. That is the rag. Is it perfectly true probably? Is it an oversimplification probably. For the time being the most extreme (about Gaza) have a lot of sway in the knesset.

Also Hamas is less like a political party and more like a militant SHTF prepper mutant ninja turtle cult. Rather than toppled it has to be dug out of its tunnels, and its still holding some hostages.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

If Hamas does not represent Palestinians yet the Palestinians can't effectively make themselves curb or repudiate Hamas nor present some alternate representative, it becomes difficult to understand how a Palestinian State would be possible and advisable.

It would require international support, a lot of economic help, and a willingness to work towards peace on all sides. It is possible, even if it seems difficult. The difficult road to peace has got to be preferable than a continuation of what's been happening.

 

[Laniakea]

I listened to Netanyahu say that Israel must have control over security over everywhere to the west of the Jordan -- and that denies Palestine their own sovereignty should a way be found to a two-state solution.

And without sovereignty, you don't have a state. And that cannot be right. So I agree with you -- it's time Bibi and his rabid-right coalition are stopped.

Israel has repeatedly experienced what happens when those in so-called Palestine have their sovereignty. They build underground tunnels to hide weapons in and to launch attacks from (when they're not launching them from the rooftops of hospitals and schools) and thousands of missiles that they can fire into Israel.