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Israel-Gaza : "Netanyahu vows no Palestinian state ..."

InChrist

Free4ever
But this isn't reflected in policies you support.

You loathe those who say Israel should be destroyed.
Yet you're OK with preventing a Palestinian state from
existing. And now Israel is destroying Gaza, & evicting
the Palestinians...trying to send them to Africa.
This is a double standard.

You rail against Hamas & the PLO, but for Israel, it's only
"not saying those of Israel are not guilty of certain things".

Israel stole their land, killed many tens of thousands, sent
many more into exile, imposed apartheid, denies equal
justice, violates international law, & now pursues deadly
vengeance, sending millions away from homes in Gaza.

This is far far far worse than even the sum total of what
the PLO & Hamas have done to Israel. Yet your criticism
of Israel is muted to near silence.

It's one thing to say that you value the lives & rights of
both Jews & Muslims. But to support policies that are
so brutally otherwise is utterly inconsistent.
I think it’s disingenuous and weird for you to say I “loathe” anyone, as if you can know my feelings. I don’t loathe or hate, but I do determine what I believe is right or wrong, as you seem to, also. Do you loathe Jews? Just asking, rather than assuming.

I think the accusations you make against Israel are false. But let’s start with one; explain why and when you think Israel stole land.
Then we could go on to discuss your perspective about, “majority of Israelis support state terrorism, murder of Muslims, apartheid, torture, war crimes, land theft, group punishment, jailing without trial, & denial of a Palestinian state.”
 
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Bthoth

Well-Known Member
If by "Jews", you're referring to the Hamas sympathizers who block traffic on American highways and attack police, then sure!
I dont know of any Jews that are HAMAS sympathizers.

Do you hate everyone that does not defend that apartheid (israel)?

Nah, it's the IDF that attack Jews.

 

Laniakea

Not of this world
I dont know of any Jews that are HAMAS sympathizers.

Do you hate everyone that does not defend that apartheid (israel)?

Nah, it's the IDF that attack Jews.

They clearly aren't. But you are conflating Jews with those who in favor of what Hamas did, and support Hamas rather than the Jews that were attacked on Oct. 7th.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
They clearly aren't. But you are conflating Jews with those who in favor of what Hamas did, and support Hamas rather than the Jews that were attacked on Oct. 7th.
I know it is clear. No one with any civility is in favor with what HAMAS did. I dont know of any person that supports HAMAS.

But with fools that defend israel blindly and without any consideration of the apartheid and oppression, I can now see what could cause more people to side with HAMAS.


What disgusts me, is how Jews are condemned for what the bigots of israel are doing. There needs to be a legal division of Jews and israel. As israel has caused more damage to jews than anything since ww2.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I think it’s disingenuous and weird for you to say I “loathe” anyone, as if you can know my feelings.
To say that you loathe terrorists who'd destroy
Israel is a reasonable inference IMO. But if you
really don't, I'll retract it.
I don’t loathe or hate, but I do determine what I believe is right or wrong, as you seem to, also. Do you loathe Jews? Just asking, rather than assuming.
I loathe evildoers. This would apply to some
but not other believers / non-believers of
various faiths / non-faiths.
I think the accusations you make against Israel are false.
This is because you & I have fundamentally
different values regarding rights.
But let’s start with one; explain why and when you think Israel stole land.
1) The process of its formation, ie, Jews killed
many many Muslims, & drove many many more
out of the country.
2) Israel tacitly condones killing & driving away
Palestinians, & then occupying their land.
3) Israel now drives millions of Palestinians out
of Gaza, & seeks to relocate them in Africa.
Then we could go on to discuss your perspective about, “majority of Israelis support state terrorism, murder of Muslims, apartheid, torture, war crimes, land theft, group punishment, jailing without trial, & denial of a Palestinian state.”
Israelis vote for leaders who do what they do.
This means a majority (of adults) approve.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
To say that you loathe terrorists who'd destroy
Israel is a reasonable inference IMO. But if you
really don't, I'll retract it.

I loathe evildoers. This would apply to some
but not other believers / non-believers of
various faiths / non-faiths.
I have listened to the accounts of former terrorists who have been saved by Jesus Christ and have entirely changed their perspective concerning their hatred toward Israel. So that is the reason I think it’s important to be careful about loathing or hating someone, rather than determining whether their actions/behaviors are right or wrong, evil or good. To be clear, I would loathe a professed Christian or anyone of any faith or non-faith, who participates in human trafficking or the practice of molesting, raping and abusing children.

Would you mind elaborating on your point below and giving some examples?
1) The process of its formation, ie, Jews killed
many many Muslims, & drove many many more
out of the country.

Israelis vote for leaders who do what they do.
This means a majority (of adults) approve.
Aren’t there around 2 million Arabs who are also Israeli citizens?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
You must have HAMAS on your mind.

Does the guilt ring in your head?

I am tool old to rely on others for the history that I have watched for over half a century.

Does HAMAS read the UN resolutions?

DOES HAMAS have conversations with Jews here in the USA?

What Makes a 'Good Jew'? - Institute for Policy Studies'Good Jew'? - Institute for Policy Studies



Do you even know any Jews?

New York Socialists Are Showing How to Stand Up to the Israel Lobby


Surge in Israeli-Palestinian violence prompts concern, calls for peace from  New England - The Boston Globe




Here in the free world, Jews are against israel.
A very sad irony indeed.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
A very sad irony indeed.
it is sad. Them people did not go to any other country and cause a problem. It was others that came there, that created the huge array of issues.

The layers of stupid that are narrated are hugenormous.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I have listened to the accounts of former terrorists who have been saved by Jesus Christ and have entirely changed their perspective concerning their hatred toward Israel. So that is the reason I think it’s important to be careful about loathing or hating someone, rather than determining whether their actions/behaviors are right or wrong, evil or good. To be clear, I would loathe a professed Christian or anyone of any faith or non-faith, who participates in human trafficking or the practice of molesting, raping and abusing children.
OK.
BTW, we have people who've been saved by Jesus
who lack humanity towards Muslims too. I see
morality as largely independent of the flavor of
religion they have.
Would you mind elaborating on your point below and giving some examples?
Specific examples don't do the conflict justice.
Some illuminating links....

Pro Zionists can view the above as necessary for Israel
because Jews have the right to the land, but the prior
occupants had none.
I don't see the desire to take the land from its occupants
based on religion & ancient ancestral claims as justification
for deadly violence & theft. I see only that some people
were attacked & dispossessed by other people. Muslim
or Jew...I don't care. Neither is better or worse than the
other, nor more or less entitled to rights & lands occupied.

Aren’t there around 2 million Arabs who are also Israeli citizens?
About that.
But they are a minority in a
country of about 10 million.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Specific examples don't do the conflict justice.
Some illuminating links....

Pro Zionists can view the above as necessary for Israel
because Jews have the right to the land, but the prior
occupants had none.
I don't see the desire to take the land from its occupants
based on religion & ancient ancestral claims as justification
for deadly violence & theft. I see only that some people
were attacked & dispossessed by other people. Muslim
or Jew...I don't care. Neither is better or worse than the
other, nor more or less entitled to rights & lands occupied. I
I would like to start the 1948 situation.
I realize the claim has been very prevalent that Israelis drove the Arabs out of Palestine and stole their land, but I have researched, read otherwise, and believe it to be a false accusation. Before the attack by the Arab countries against the new nation of Israel, Israelis encouraged the Arab residents of Palestine to stay. It was Arab military leaders who commanded the people to get out before they attacked Israel.

“The Arabs who fled Israel in 1948 (in spite of Israel's urgent invitation to remain to build a new country together) did so at the insistence of the Arab military. They were warned that those who remained would be considered traitors to the Arab cause. Most of those who fled never saw an Israeli soldier. They are the only "refugees" in the Middle East as far as the world is concerned and to whom all the sympathy is given. Jewish refugees count for nothing. The families of those who did not flee comprise about 25 percent of Israel's citizens today and have full voting rights. Some are even members of the Knesset, in spite of their opposition to Israel's existence. In stark contrast, no Jew can be a citizen of any Muslim country, where the few remaining have almost no rights.”



“…in Haifa for example, the senior Jewish official there as well as the Hagana’s high command, drove through the Arab section of the city with a loudspeaker on April 26, 1948 (the State of Israel had STILL not been declared!!!), calling out in Arabic to the residents of his city to remain on their land and in their homes. A communique issued by the Haifa headquarters of the British police noted, “Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe.” (see point 4 below)

For their part, Arab leaders of the paramilitary forces, and the forces of Syria, were blunt in their announcements that they wanted Arabs to leave these areas so that the Arab armies would have a clear field in which to initiate their genocide of the Jews.”



The Arab countries/leaders expected to destroy Israel and win. Instead, Israel won, resulting in territorial changes-
“Israel keeps the area allotted to it by the government Partition Plan and captures ≈60% of the area allotted to Arab state; Jordanian rule of the West Bank, Egyptian occupation of the Gaza Strip



You say you care about dispossessed people whoever they are who have experienced theft, violence, etc. Do you care about the Jews who had to flee Muslim countries?

“More than 800,000 Jews fled from Muslim lands to Israel for refuge, leaving behind virtually everything they had possessed. This was almost double the number of Arab refugees who fled from Israel during the war of independence. Yet these Jewish refugees who fled persecution and slaughter are ignored in the media. For example, in 1948 there were about 265,000 Jews in Morocco, today there are about 5,000. There were about 140,000 Jews in Algeria, while today there are none. There were about 135,000 in Iraq, 75,000 in Egypt, and 30,000 in Syria, with only about 100 remaining in each of these countries.”


What about where you live? Are living on land that belonged to Native Americans?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I would like to start the 1948 situation.
I realize the claim has been very prevalent that Israelis drove the Arabs out of Palestine and stole their land, but I have researched, read otherwise, and believe it to be a false accusation. Before the attack by the Arab countries against the new nation of Israel, Israelis encouraged the Arab residents of Palestine to stay. It was Arab military leaders who commanded the people to get out before they attacked Israel.

“The Arabs who fled Israel in 1948 (in spite of Israel's urgent invitation to remain to build a new country together) did so at the insistence of the Arab military. They were warned that those who remained would be considered traitors to the Arab cause. Most of those who fled never saw an Israeli soldier. They are the only "refugees" in the Middle East as far as the world is concerned and to whom all the sympathy is given. Jewish refugees count for nothing. The families of those who did not flee comprise about 25 percent of Israel's citizens today and have full voting rights. Some are even members of the Knesset, in spite of their opposition to Israel's existence. In stark contrast, no Jew can be a citizen of any Muslim country, where the few remaining have almost no rights.”



“…in Haifa for example, the senior Jewish official there as well as the Hagana’s high command, drove through the Arab section of the city with a loudspeaker on April 26, 1948 (the State of Israel had STILL not been declared!!!), calling out in Arabic to the residents of his city to remain on their land and in their homes. A communique issued by the Haifa headquarters of the British police noted, “Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe.” (see point 4 below)

For their part, Arab leaders of the paramilitary forces, and the forces of Syria, were blunt in their announcements that they wanted Arabs to leave these areas so that the Arab armies would have a clear field in which to initiate their genocide of the Jews.”



The Arab countries/leaders expected to destroy Israel and win. Instead, Israel won, resulting in territorial changes-
“Israel keeps the area allotted to it by the government Partition Plan and captures ≈60% of the area allotted to Arab state; Jordanian rule of the West Bank, Egyptian occupation of the Gaza Strip



You say you care about dispossessed people whoever they are who have experienced theft, violence, etc. Do you care about the Jews who had to flee Muslim countries?

“More than 800,000 Jews fled from Muslim lands to Israel for refuge, leaving behind virtually everything they had possessed. This was almost double the number of Arab refugees who fled from Israel during the war of independence. Yet these Jewish refugees who fled persecution and slaughter are ignored in the media. For example, in 1948 there were about 265,000 Jews in Morocco, today there are about 5,000. There were about 140,000 Jews in Algeria, while today there are none. There were about 135,000 in Iraq, 75,000 in Egypt, and 30,000 in Syria, with only about 100 remaining in each of these countries.”
There is no common ground here.
I read history differently, ie the Nakba wasn't so benevolent.
Your posts show only concern only Jewish victimhood & entitlement.
I have different moral values, not based on religious preference.
What about where you live? Are living on land that belonged to Native Americans?
I am.
Why do you ask?
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
There is no common ground here.
I read history differently.
I have different moral values.

I am.
Why do you ask?
Your response isn’t very clear. What do you mean you read history differently?

I am curious why you seem to think the situation with the Arab refugees from Palestine are of higher significance than Jewish refugees, refugees from other countries, or Native Americans who had their land stolen. At least it appears that’s your view to me.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Before the attack by the Arab countries against the new nation of Israel, Israelis encouraged the Arab residents of Palestine to stay.

Except when they didn't. See, for example, Operation Hametz.

It is deceptively easy to comb through the history of Israel-Palestine and piece together a narrative that supports one side or the other -- easy but disingenuous.

I read history differently.
As do I.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Except when they didn't. See, for example, Operation Hametz.

It is deceptively easy to comb through the history of Israel-Palestine and piece together a narrative that supports one side or the other -- easy but disingenuous.
So would you say this information below is accurate concerning the situation?


“For some time Arab villages east of Jaffahad been threatening the road to Jerusalem and created a wedge between the Jewish areas to the north-east and south-east of Tel Aviv. Arab attacks were being mounted constantly on the outlying areas of Tel Aviv, and snipers from Jaffa's high buildings covered the main thoroughfares inside Tel Aviv, so that innocent passers-by could be picked off. In the Tel Aviv area, the Alexandroni Brigade commanded by Dan Even along with forces from the Kiryati and Givatibrigades launched Operation Hamez (Leaven) on the eve of Passover. The aim of the operation was to capture the Arab villages east of Jaffa: Hiriya, Sakiya, Salame, and Yazur. The Jews did not originally plan to capture Jaffa, rather their aim was to use an indirect approach to encircle the number of Arab villages east of it which endangered the road to Jerusalem. As long as the threat of the Arab Armies was minimal, the Haganahforces refrained from attacking Jaffa. The encirclement of Jaffa was completed on April 29, and most of its 70,000 Arabs inhabitants fled. Its final surrender came on May 13, when the British troops left. On May 14th, the Beit Dajon police station was captured, thus opening the road to Ramlah and the South.”

 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Your response isn’t very clear. What do you mean you read history differently?
I edited the post to be clearer.
I am curious why you seem to think the situation with the Arab refugees from Palestine are of higher significance than Jewish refugees, refugees from other countries.....
You're mistaken.
The issue today is what Jews are doing to Muslims.
Jews' earlier plight doesn't justify doing the same to Muslims.
...or Native Americans who had their land stolen. At least it appears that’s your view to me.
You've not even asked me about this.
Yet you prejudge.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I edited the post to be clearer.
Thank you.
You're mistaken.
The issue today is what Jews are doing to Muslims.
Jews' earlier plight doesn't justify doing the same to Muslims.
I don’t think what happened to the Jews earlier necessarily justified treating the Muslims unjustly, either. But I do think a faulty understanding of the history alters one’s perceptions and understanding of current events. I just don’t understand why you don’t seem to see any problem with the constant attacks Israel has endured since it’s inception as a nation from Arab neighbors in Gaza, West Bank , or elsewhere.
You've not even asked me about this.
Yet you prejudge.
I apologize. Don’t want to pre-judge. I would be glad to hear your thoughts about stolen Native American land or any other refugee situation.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Thank you.

I don’t think what happened to the Jews earlier necessarily justified treating the Muslims unjustly, either. But I do think a faulty understanding of the history alters one’s perceptions and understanding of current events. I just don’t understand why you don’t seem to see any problem with the constant attacks Israel has endured since it’s inception as a nation from Arab neighbors in Gaza, West Bank , or elsewhere.
You don't understand because you don't see the
fundamental problem going on, ie, Israel's
treatment of Palestinians. Until God's Chosen
end apartheid, end oppression, & grant full
human rights to Muslims, the conflict is
doomed to continue. Israel is its own worst
enemy.

I apologize. Don’t want to pre-judge. I would be glad to hear your thoughts about stolen Native American land or any other refugee situation.
Manifest Destiny is too far afield for this thread.
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
Your posts show only concern only Jewish victimhood & entitlement.
Don’t you think there’s a possibility that your posts show only concern for Palestinian victimhood & entitlement?

I think that is exactly what Hamas wants and the Palestinians have been used and abused as pawns by their corrupt leaders for years now to gain world sympathy, support, and get people on board with their hatred against Israel.
 
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