Israel stops fuel shipments; Gaza City goes dark

[doppelganger]

actually that's exactly what i mean. If they stopped firing rockets and did something to show they cared about their own people and not about killing us we would help and i would support such help.

So the answer is Israel hurting the people of Gaza, too? Isn't that precisely the reason for the bombing in the first place . . . ? The bigger picture is a war for the identities and support of the people. Punishing the people for the acts of radicals eases the tension that should otherwise be there between decent, ordinary people and the radicals who need their support.

 

[Sunstone]

So the answer is Israel hurting the people of Gaza, too? Isn't that precisely the reason for the bombing in the first place . . . ? The bigger picture is a war for the identities and support of the people. Punishing the people for the acts of radicals eases the tension that should otherwise be there between decent, ordinary people and the radicals who need their support.

Precisely! Why would anyone expect punishing a whole population to do anything other than drive many of them into the arms of the radicals?

 

[kai]

So the answer is Israel hurting the people of Gaza, too? Isn't that precisely the reason for the bombing in the first place . . . ? The bigger picture is a war for the identities and support of the people. Punishing the people for the acts of radicals eases the tension that should otherwise be there between decent, ordinary people and the radicals who need their support.

they are not firing missiles because Israel is hurting anybody haven't you read the HAMAS charter i have posted some of it on this thread, its idealogical

 

[doppelganger]

well what would you do ?

I would treat the people of Gaza with respect and kindness and help them to build a society in which they have a real stake so that supporting and harboring radicals becomes less and less attractive. A society under stress will increasingly become violent because the people who make it up have less and less to lose. When they have businesses, schools, medical care and chances to improve the world they are going to give to their kids, then they begin to feel the same way you and I do about terrorists.

 

[doppelganger]

they are not firing missiles because Israel is hurting anybody haven't you read the HAMAS charter i have posted some of it on this thread, its idealogical

You misunderstand me . . . they are firing missiles SO Israel WILL hurt the people, not because of Israel's past acts. Their "ideology" is just a PR campaign to justify the bombing that's part of the struggle for power and support among their own people (so is the bombing).

 

[kai]

I would treat the people of Gaza with respect and kindness and help them to build a society in which they have a real stake so that supporting and harboring radicals becomes less and less attractive. A society under stress will increasingly become violent because the people who make it up have less and less to lose. When they have businesses, schools, medical care and chances to improve the world they are going to give to their kids, then they begin to feel the same way you and I do about terrorists.

they are not firing missiles because Israel is hurting anybody haven't you read the HAMAS charter i have posted some of it on this thread, its idealogical

 

[kai]

i am getting confused now

 

[kai]

I would treat the people of Gaza with respect and kindness and help them to build a society in which they have a real stake so that supporting and harboring radicals becomes less and less attractive. A society under stress will increasingly become violent because the people who make it up have less and less to lose. When they have businesses, schools, medical care and chances to improve the world they are going to give to their kids, then they begin to feel the same way you and I do about terrorists.

thats if they are not killed for western ideas about schools ,medical care etc , you know what i mean Hamas is Taliban like

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Another article concerning this issue.

Egypt starts to control crowds from Gaza - Yahoo! News


From the article:

Privately, several Israeli officials have said Wednesday's border breach was a positive development that would ease pressure on Israel to keep providing for Gaza's basic needs, and could pave the way for increasingly disconnecting from the territory.
"We need to understand that when Gaza is open to the other side we lose responsibility for it," Vilnai said, according to his office. "So we want to disconnect from it."
"We want to stop supplying electricity to them, stop supplying them with water and medicine, so that it would come from another place," Vilnai said.
Israel will continue to be responsible for the flow of such supplies into the Gaza Strip until an alternative is found, the office quoted him as saying.

Interesting that at first the Israelis don't want a humanitarian crisis, but they want to stop food, water, and medical supplies? Make that make sense to me.

 

[doppelganger]

thats if they are not killed for western ideas about schools ,medical care etc , you know what i mean Hamas is Taliban like

It's not going to be easy. But right now, nobody is offering the people anything to hope for other than radical religious fantasies. If the US and Israel offered them schools, medicine and hope and the "Taliban-like" Hamas was taking it away from them . . . then the real war (the one for hearts and minds) would be winnable.

 

[jewscout]

So the answer is Israel hurting the people of Gaza, too? Isn't that precisely the reason for the bombing in the first place . . . ? The bigger picture is a war for the identities and support of the people. Punishing the people for the acts of radicals eases the tension that should otherwise be there between decent, ordinary people and the radicals who need their support.

Hamas bombs us every single day, an organization who cut, of their own free will, the power to their own people in Gaza City. They want to be able to parade out the dead and dying before CNN and BBC.

Our people are put in danger, many have fled the surrounding cities near the Gaza Strip, but, hey, it's our own fault, right?

 

[kai]

Another article concerning this issue.

Egypt starts to control crowds from Gaza - Yahoo! News


From the article:



Interesting that at first the Israelis don't want a humanitarian crisis, but they want to stop food, water, and medical supplies? Make that make sense to me.

i thought you wanted an independant state , maybe egypt could supply Gaza with all its needs .

 

[doppelganger]

hey, it's our own fault, right?

Straw man.

Of course it's not your own fault. It's not about fault. How you respond to it is your decision, and whether you understand why they are doing it or not is a matter to be carefully considered. Vengeance against the people of Gaza is certainly one option, and if it has undesirable consequences, then those consequences are the result of all those whose choices made those consequences manifest, including those who choose vengeance, but also those who provoked them to it.

 

[jewscout]

It's not going to be easy. But right now, nobody is offering the people anything to hope for other than radical religious fantasies. If the US and Israel offered them schools, medicine and hope and the "Taliban-like" Hamas was taking it away from them . . . then the real war (the one for hearts and minds) would be winnable.

why is Israel and the US always the ones responsible?

what about the oil rich Arab world?

I'd like to see Israel build schools and hospitals for the Palestinians...but i'd bet the life of my first born child they wouldn't last 6 months before they were burned to the ground.

by the way, until the rise of Hamas, the PA got millions in international aid, yet little was used to build anything.

Just recently the international community has just approved 7.6 BILLION dollars for the PA, 40% to go to the Gaza Strip.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3495681,00.html

 

[kai]

It's not going to be easy. But right now, nobody is offering the people anything to hope for other than radical religious fantasies. If the US and Israel offered them schools, medicine and hope and the "Taliban-like" Hamas was taking it away from them . . . then the real war (the one for hearts and minds) would be winnable.

they already have taken it away from them why do you think its like it is , its not like it on the west bank, the troops have gone and they still wont ceasefire, and the battle for hearts and minds has become an east west battle now i dont think you know to much about middle eastern politics. your idea is pure fairy tale ending

 

[doppelganger]

your idea is pure fairy tale ending

And yours is an endless nightmare.

 

[kai]

And yours is an endless nightmare.

it could well be, or even worse than that

 

[jewscout]

Straw man.

Of course it's not your own fault. It's not about fault. How you respond to it is your decision, and whether you understand why they are doing it or not is a matter to be carefully considered. Vengeance against the people of Gaza is certainly one option, and if it has undesirable consequences, then those consequences are the result of all those whose choices made those consequences manifest, including those who choose vengeance, but also those who provoked them to it.

you talk about winning hearts and minds. that war was lost the moment the first jew set foot back in Eretz Yisrael. We tried for peace but it was always thrown in our face. It took several wars and several defeats for Egypt and Jordan to give us peace, and i wonder how much of that was motivated by a desire to not want to take care of the Palestinians anymore, who were also put behind a wall by Egypt.

since the days of the Mufti the war of hearts and minds was lost to us, and the subsequent wars against Israel have only made things worse. every defeat was turned into a rally cry for revenge.

that pattern has not stopped.

 

[jewscout]

This goes back to my other point about the Palastenians just leaving and trying to go elsewhere. If other countries absorbed them that would be great, but what about the Palastenians that don't want to leave? Should they be forced to leave if it makes Israel feel better?

Would it be feasible to create a law whereby the Palastinians MUST leave Gaza and all Israeli territories? It would effectively solve the problem, but how fair is it?

jews who had lived in the Arab world since the times of the Babylonian exhile were forced from their homes, often times after a massacre of jews in the arab version of a ghetto, their property and businesses were seized by the arab government and they fled to refugee camps in Israel.

the Arabs didn't want their jews anymore and have pretty much liquidated the Arab Jewish community in the matter of a few years.

how fair is that?

PS i imagine the Oil rich arab world would have a financially easier time at helping their Palestinian brothers and sisters than the newly birthed State of Israel.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

So let me get this straight....the Israelis ever since stepping foot on Palestinian soil has done nothing but be nice, and if they happen to do anything out of character, it was strictly because the Palestinians are so evil. The Israelis are also being victimized to no end although it is them that is in the position of authority and power, yet the people of Gaza (who we all just witnessed in a frenzy trying to get simple things that you and I take for granted to be available to us) are in such a position to hold Israel by the proverbial collar?

The coming of the Israelis to Palestinian soil and the ensuing conflict was all brought about by the Palestinians whose job it was to be quiet, pack up and leave and throw a welcome home party I guess.


No one has of yet answered my previous questions about how much responsibility is on either of the two parties to achieve peace, but I am slowly getting the answer. The answer is that Israel is 100% justified in all that they do, and the Palestinians are 100% at fault for all that has happened to them. They live in Gaza in perfectly pristine conditions, and so none of us can figure out just why they wanna pick fights with the poor defenseless Israeli's all the time.

Also they didn't just volunteer to turn off that power, it takes fuel to run that plant. If the fuel is cut short, then they would need to turn it off to preserve fuel stores. If you think that having 50-60% fuel and power is acceptable, let's try that here in America and see how it goes over.