Israel stops fuel shipments; Gaza City goes dark

[fullyveiled muslimah]

jews who had lived in the Arab world since the times of the Babylonian exhile were forced from their homes, often times after a massacre of jews in the arab version of a ghetto, their property and businesses were seized by the arab government and they fled to refugee camps in Israel.

the Arabs didn't want their jews anymore and have pretty much liquidated the Arab Jewish community in the matter of a few years.

how fair is that?

PS i imagine the Oil rich arab world would have a financially easier time at helping their Palestinian brothers and sisters than the newly birthed State of Israel.

Oh well, why didn't you say it before that this is all a matter of simple pay-back. So what are the Arabs so mad about eh?! We'll just sit down and explain to them how their forefathers sowed what they are now reaping, and they should understand that Israel has a right to rule over them, or not, and all peachy keen yes?

 

[doppelganger]

And the beat goes on . . .

 

[Smoke]

Also they didn't just volunteer to turn off that power, it takes fuel to run that plant. If the fuel is cut short, then they would need to turn it off to preserve fuel stores. If you think that having 50-60% fuel and power is acceptable, let's try that here in America and see how it goes over.

Just how long would you continue to provide fuel to people who were firing missiles at you and your children?

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Just how long would you continue to provide fuel to people who were firing missiles at you and your children?

As long as I have to. I would handle those that are shooting missiles, and not punish their children who have nothing to do with it. Even a dog has a right to food, water, and lick his own wounds. Are we assuming that the palestinians have no legitimate gripe, and therefore the missiles are 100% a result of unprovoked aggression on their part?

 

[Kidblop]

Hamas is the best ally to the Palestinians'. It provides the downtrodden population with aid where Israel pushed them from their homes and neglected their needs for decades. of course they're going to protect them. Israel is far from really caring about the Palestinians regardless if bombs fall or not. does total war still apply where you make civilians suffer because they don't accept your dominance?

To Hamas the Israel state and civilians are like the Europeans to the native americans. I can feel sympathy towards the native americans; why not Hamas? Both targeted civilians. i don't agree with the practice but it's a reasonable position.

 

[Kidblop]

The Arab world has, roughly,

• 650 times as much land, for
• 50 times the population, resulting in
• less than one tenth the population density.

Let this colossus absorb the Palestinian refugee much as Israel has absorbed the Jewish refugees from the Arab world.

If one square inch was taken from my property id have the right to fight back.. especially if my ancestors had something special related to this spot.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Hamas is the best ally to the Palestinians'. It provides the downtrodden population with aid where Israel pushed them from their homes and neglected their needs for decades. of course they're going to protect them. Israel is far from really caring about the Palestinians regardless if bombs fall or not. does total war still apply where you make civilians suffer because they don't accept your dominance?

To Hamas the Israel state and civilians are like the Europeans to the native americans. I can feel sympathy towards the native americans; why not Hamas? Both targeted civilians. i don't agree with the practice but it's a reasonable position.

I have been sarcastically saying much of the same thing, about the POV of the palestinians in this regard. How would the US like it if the native americans decide that half the eastern seaboard should be their own sovereign state, and all that live there must relocate to the otehr parts of america in order to make that happen. Everyone knows that this land was violently and unjustly usurped from the native so they'd have a point, but who would deal with that quietly? Nobody. So why the Palestinians have to deal with it? Just because Israel is their ancestral homeland does not discount the fact that other people live on it, and they should not be pushed aside and disregarded so easily.

 

[kai]

I have been sarcastically saying much of the same thing, about the POV of the palestinians in this regard. How would the US like it if the native americans decide that half the eastern seaboard should be their own sovereign state, and all that live there must relocate to the otehr parts of america in order to make that happen. Everyone knows that this land was violently and unjustly usurped from the native so they'd have a point, but who would deal with that quietly? Nobody. So why the Palestinians have to deal with it? Just because Israel is their ancestral homeland does not discount the fact that other people live on it, and they should not be pushed aside and disregarded so easily.

its an old argument Israel is here to stay, you know as well as i do there was no such thing as a Palestinian they were an invented Nation to suit the Arabs in their conflict with Israel even Arafat an egyptian admitted it , as i say old argument, Gaza and the west bank are no longer occupied the two state solution was being implemented then HAMAS and that was the end of that . get rid of Hamas and peace returns Gaza and the west bank can be run by the Palestinians for the Palestinians and will need help from their rich neighbors for peaceful things instead of weapons.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

its an old argument Israel is here to stay, you know as well as i do there was no such thing as a Palestinian they were an invented Nation to suit the Arabs in their conflict with Israel even Arafat an egyptian admitted it , as i say old argument, Gaza and the west bank are no longer occupied the two state solution was being implemented then HAMAS and that was the end of that . get rid of Hamas and peace returns Gaza and the west bank can be run by the Palestinians for the Palestinians and will need help from their rich neighbors for peaceful things instead of weapons.

The two state solution?! So you telling me that the gaza strip can be its own autonomous nation while Israel controls all its borders, it airspace, waterspace, and the movement of both people and goods into and out of its land?! Are you crazy or what?! Just because Israel removed its troops does not mean they relinquished control over the land. They want to give up responsibility of the people but I bet you anything they don't wanna give up that control they have.

This conflict was in effect well before the formation of hamas, so to lay it all on the doorstep of them and at the same time imply that the Israeli's are never at fault is one of the most ridiculous things I've read in a while on here. I could count on you to supply it.

 

[kai]

The two state solution?! So you telling me that the gaza strip can be its own autonomous nation while Israel controls all its borders, it airspace, waterspace, and the movement of both people and goods into and out of its land?! Are you crazy or what?! Just because Israel removed its troops does not mean they relinquished control over the land. They want to give up responsibility of the people but I bet you anything they don't wanna give up that control they have.
yes i do beleive that once the violence stops
This conflict was in effect well before the formation of hamas, so to lay it all on the doorstep of them and at the same time imply that the Israeli's are never at fault is one of the most ridiculous things I've read in a while on here. I could count on you to supply it.

you can count on me to tell it like it is yes before Hamas there was the PLO.

We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem.
Yasser Arafat


its a fact peace means peace full stop. Gaza or West bank could not possibly be totally self sufficiant without help from Israel

and who said that the Israelis are never at fault ? not me . i am totally unbiased and just look at the facts.

just because someone is of the ummah doesnt make them right

 

[jewscout]

So let me get this straight....the Israelis ever since stepping foot on Palestinian soil has done nothing but be nice, and if they happen to do anything out of character, it was strictly because the Palestinians are so evil. The Israelis are also being victimized to no end although it is them that is in the position of authority and power, yet the people of Gaza (who we all just witnessed in a frenzy trying to get simple things that you and I take for granted to be available to us) are in such a position to hold Israel by the proverbial collar?

The coming of the Israelis to Palestinian soil and the ensuing conflict was all brought about by the Palestinians whose job it was to be quiet, pack up and leave and throw a welcome home party I guess.


No one has of yet answered my previous questions about how much responsibility is on either of the two parties to achieve peace, but I am slowly getting the answer. The answer is that Israel is 100% justified in all that they do, and the Palestinians are 100% at fault for all that has happened to them. They live in Gaza in perfectly pristine conditions, and so none of us can figure out just why they wanna pick fights with the poor defenseless Israeli's all the time.

it was not that long ago that Israel found itself under constant threat of extermination by the Arab world. From before the time of the State, Arab leadership, for their own personal political benefit, fed their people on a line of hate and death to the Jews. And this has continued until today. We bought the land, legally, from it's owners and took the partion of the UN in 1947 even tho we didn't get everything we wanted. This partition included a large non-jewish minority. In many places Arabs and Jewish settlers actually got along. The old timers on my kibbutz relate to me how they got along just fine w/ the arabs of the Gaza strip, with no incidents of violence or hardships. Then the War of Independence and the kibbutz was leveled by the Egyptian airforce and the founders moved north while Egypt locked down the refugees in Gaza leaving them to live in poverty and being fed on hate and revenge.

this position of power and authority as the major military force in the region is a relatively recent occurance. I know people who can still remember the bombings by Egypt, who remember Syrian snipers picking off people in the north just going about their business.
And just like the Palestinians who have suffered, everyone here has lost someone, no one is untouched by this conflict, this war that has no end.

as to your questions who holds responsibility to make peace each side has a responsibility to secure policy.

in my most humble opinion the 2 greatest things (aside from the obvious unending violence) that hold back a successful peace treaty and end to this war is:

1) Strong political leadership on both sides who are serious about making peace instead of just talking about it for personal political and financial gain.

2) The complete an absolute distrust of one side to the other, which both feel is completely justified and thus continues to fuel the distrust, fear and hate toward the other. And, frankly, i think the only way a peace process will be trusted by our respective peoples is when it is not initiated by anyone but the Israelis and Palestinians.

and true peace will only be attained when BOTH sides are tired of fighting and are ready to change.

until then it will simply be business as usual.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

They want to give up responsibility of the people but I bet you anything they don't wanna give up that control they have.

It's a fools bet. The phrase "tiger by the tail" comes to mind.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem.
Yasser Arafat

A similar sentiment was just posited by Ehud Olmert. Read my sig, it is a quote from him that he just went on record as saying. For the suffering of a portion of Israeli's he vowed that all Gaza's people will never live in peace.

just because someone is of the ummah doesnt make them right

It doesn't make them wrong either.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

as to your questions who holds responsibility to make peace each side has a responsibility to secure policy.

in my most humble opinion the 2 greatest things (aside from the obvious unending violence) that hold back a successful peace treaty and end to this war is:

1) Strong political leadership on both sides who are serious about making peace instead of just talking about it for personal political and financial gain.

2) The complete an absolute distrust of one side to the other, which both feel is completely justified and thus continues to fuel the distrust, fear and hate toward the other. And, frankly, i think the only way a peace process will be trusted by our respective peoples is when it is not initiated by anyone but the Israelis and Palestinians.

and true peace will only be attained when BOTH sides are tired of fighting and are ready to change.

until then it will simply be business as usual.

I can accept that. I can agree with it also. They must come to trust each other, and it is quite a vicious cycle. At this point it is starting not to matter who started it only that it finishes. I wonder how trust can be gained? That would be the biggest hurdle. Any perceived breach of trust would start it all back at square one.

 

[kai]

I can accept that. I can agree with it also. They must come to trust each other, and it is quite a vicious cycle. At this point it is starting not to matter who started it only that it finishes. I wonder how trust can be gained? That would be the biggest hurdle. Any perceived breach of trust would start it all back at square one.

trust can only be gained when the violence stops ,egypt and jordon are at peace, its an easy answer to come to if you leave out Hamas , unfortunately being a muslim you tend not to criticize fellow muslims , after all even if you dissagree with the Hamas charter, they are still your brothers , your quote is well able to show the tit for tat scale of things but using it shows you are not unbiased in your view , yet you live in chicago, this is part of the problem the support for the ummah is fine but the ummah is the arabs left in Gaza and the west bank who have been used as pawns by the arab nations for decades, not Hamas who openly do not want peace .

i tend to take Northern Ireland as an example ,when the bullets stopped, the talking started and the the aid rushed in and now its like a different place. but its hard for men of violence to to give up when its all that gives them respect is fear

 

[kai]

A similar sentiment was just posited by Ehud Olmert. Read my sig, it is a quote from him that he just went on record as saying. For the suffering of a portion of Israeli's he vowed that all Gaza's people will never live in peace.




It doesn't make them wrong either.

i used that quote to show you what was there before Hamas , i would not dream of using it as a signature . it tends to make all palestinians out to be like arafat , and yours gives the impresion that all israelis share the comment of olmert

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I used the sig to show only his sentiment not the sentiment of all Israeli's. At this point I wouldn't lay so much of the blame for the muslims part in all this at the feet of hamas. They have their share no doubt, but the muslims I am most disgusted in at present is the surrounding arab states who have the palestinians living in concentration camps and not absorbing their own brothers and sisters. They are in many instances treating them worse actually, then the Israeli's can ever be accused of.

I have been following the conflict in the news in light of the border breach with Egypt. It got a little hairy when tensions mounted as the hamas officers, gazans, and egyptian police clashed a bit. Afterwards though, hamas stopped getting so hostile and started helping the egyptian officers bring the people under control. Hamas is begging Egypt not to close the border yet until some agreement is reached between them, Egypt, fatah, and even Israel about opening some kind of offical and monitered crossing. At the same time, Israel launched a small attack during the chaos at the border, and killed some hamas officers. The article did not state that hamas had attacked or threatened to attack Israel at that time, although I understand the apprehension.


It seems to me that the policy of not recognizing and not dealing or negotiating with a group that have been deemed terrorists, is a good idea 99% of the time. However, the reality is that terrorist marked or not, they are for all intents and purposes representing the gazans in all this. Since both palestinian and israeli lives have been lost and continue to be at stake, maybe that policy can be bent just a little.

It appears to me that despite having gone on record to say that they will not come to peace, maybe all these hard times are getting to them. Maybe they are thinking they should calm down and do a little talking and less shooting, because they are living under the same conditions as the rest of the gazans. It also appears to me that they are saying they wish to have a say in their own destiny as it were, and they wanna sit with somebody...anybody since they were willing even to bury the hatchet for a moment with fatah to talk. And we know they don't get along at all. I say that if one way isn't working try another. Perhaps the squeeze on the palestinians didn't make them overturn hamas, but it may have done one better and changed hamas' mind. Some hunger, some cold, and some sickness will get to anybody I say. It would offer a chance to show once and for all for the world to see what hamas is made of. If they are given a platform for speech and a say in their own destiny and it stops the violence, that would be a joyous day indeed. If they are given this same platform, but continue to be violent, I would suggest a state such as Egypt go in and depose them. Wouldn't be that hard to do, I mean they are small they have nothing, they have no army so they cannot withstand full military assault. I believe it would be wise to have an arab state do it and not the US nor Israel as that will be taken the wrong way, because many do not trust the intentions.


I don't know though. All of this mere speculation, but just as valid as any since no one to date has come up with a solution that works. I want ultimately that both Israel and the palestinians can get most fo what they want without the destruction of either people.

 

[kai]

fvm on this rare occasion i agree with you!

 

[kai]

more basic essentials for the gazans, it seems chinese motor cycles are in need
BBC NEWS | Programmes | From Our Own Correspondent | Crossing into Egypt for supplies

 

[jewscout]

I can accept that. I can agree with it also. They must come to trust each other, and it is quite a vicious cycle. At this point it is starting not to matter who started it only that it finishes. I wonder how trust can be gained? That would be the biggest hurdle. Any perceived breach of trust would start it all back at square one.

i'm afraid those bridges of trust can only come when the hate and anger have exhausted themselves...and i fear that i will not live to see that day.