Israeli Cabinet passes loyalty bill, Arabs angry

[arimoff]

You really think the bill will bring some sort of peace or stability, don't you?

Still, the text above is essentially an admission that it is pointless at best. What boggles the mind is that such a people as the Jewish, of all people, would make it a point to oppress minorities in their land. I must be misunderstanding something about what I have learned of the history of Jewish People in Europe.

I think you have been misunderstanding the fact that the bill is not trying to turn an Arab in to a Jew. Not all Arabs in Israel are terrorists but there is a big number of them who support it by taking the oath you admit Israel is a Jewish state, you dellegitimize your own views by admitting that Israel is a Jewish state.

No I don't believe it will bring peace but it is a big psychological step forward that was needed a long time ago. It is naive to live with people who want you dead, no other country would accept it so why should Israel?

France kicked out all the gypsies they had and all I hear about is how unfair Israel is, unfair to who? to those who constantly have been mistreating us?

 

[LuisDantas]

I think you have been misunderstanding the fact that the bill is not trying to turn an Arab in to a Jew.

You're wrong, I never thought anything like that.

What I do think is that establish an oath to a "Jewish State" is both counterproductive, pointless and dangerously discriminating. The implicit message is that those who don't want Israel to be explicitly Jewish aren't fully entitled to citizenship. That message I find quite disgusting.

Not all Arabs in Israel are terrorists but there is a big number of them who support it by taking the oath you admit Israel is a Jewish state, you dellegitimize your own views by admitting that Israel is a Jewish state.

The government is Jewish, that much is true. That it is attempting to become a Jewish Theocracy is quite disappointing.

No I don't believe it will bring peace but it is a big psychological step forward that was needed a long time ago. It is naive to live with people who want you dead, no other country would accept it so why should Israel?

You tell me. You are the one wanting to support the bill, which may well incense spirits and has no way of helping peace.

France kicked out all the gypsies they had and all I hear about is how unfair Israel is, unfair to who? to those who constantly have been mistreating us?

If you want to take it for granted that non-zionists are "mistreating" the Jewish people, then I guess nothing will convince you otherwise.

 

[linwood]

What's wrong with a loyalty oath. If anything, a loyalty oath to Israel makes sense, given it's situation. When I grew up in America, I had to say the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag every morning in school. People of all ethnicities had to say it.

No you didn`t.

Nobody "has" to say it.

Nobodies citizenship rests on any law that requires stating any oath in this country.

The idea that a state can be "jewish" AND "Democratic" is asinine.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

No you didn`t.

Nobody "has" to say it.

Nobodies citizenship rests on any law that requires stating any oath in this country.

Also to point out, the Pledge is a pledge. Not an oath. They aren't quite the same thing. You take an oath of office and you're recognized as occupying it. You take an oath to tell the truth in court and you can be charged if you're found to be lying. I've never heard of a pledge of office or lying under pledge.

The original and current pledge also never mention any creed, race, or culture.

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

 

[Bismillah]

I think the Israeli government has the right to pass any damn bill it pleases. It is their jobs that are on the line and if the citizens don't like their decisions I am confident said government will be sent packing. What is more interesting is if any subsequent government would repeal the bill.

Like how the Christian coservative base has for years battled hard against equl rights for gays? Do you think that the American government has the right to do that? Like I have said, it's not surprising it was passed with a majority of votes. It's the rights of the minorities which are actually ever in danger.

 

[YmirGF]

Like how the Christian coservative base has for years battled hard against equl rights for gays? Do you think that the American government has the right to do that? Like I have said, it's not surprising it was passed with a majority of votes. It's the rights of the minorities which are actually ever in danger.

It might prove helpful if you actually read what I am saying. In fact, governments do have the right to do whatever they jolly well please - within the limits of the law and at the express pleasure of the majority of voters.

 

[Etritonakin]

The republic changed in 1868 with the 14th Amendment. I was referring to this situation as a time when it is obvious to address a problem in the basic foundations of a government.

There were far more Arabs at the time, but whatever.



What saddens me is that there have been plenty of genocides in this world, but only one has been addressed. Also very sad that it is Europeans who were the one who persecuted Jews, and after Hitler, all Europeans did was send them into land taken in WW1 from the Ottoman Empire.

The republic did not change at that time -it began to change -this illustrates the difference between a document and reality.
Some did not consider blacks to be even human.
When was Martin Luther King, Jr. shot?

Numbers aren't really the issue. Native Americans -who once far outnumbered settlers -(a genocide I addressed) have a historical link to the lands of the U.S. (and were recently to have received much land back according to the treaties signed way back when -yet did not). If they wandered for thousands of years and then wanted to set up a homeland SPECIFICALLY for native Americans on a small piece of land, would we begrudge them that (probably, which is my point)? They have reservations, but that's quite different. I wouldn't mind seeing a sort of Israel for native Americans -even with an oath of allegiance to them as a requirement for citizenship. Europe, etc. may have sent them here and there, but many Jews wanted to go to the holy land -and the notion of forming a Jewish nation there was not new.

Note:
Biblically, it was God who drove Israel from around Jerusalem -and God who brought them back. The Jews, however, are only a part of the people of Israel, as the nation was divided by civil war. It is primarily the house of Judah which inhabits Israel. The house of Israel is far greater in numbers -and not recognized by many as such -and most do not even know they are of the house of Israel.

 

[Bismillah]

It might prove helpful if you actually read what I am saying. In fact, governments do have the right to do whatever they jolly well please - within the limits of the law and at the express pleasure of the majority of voters.

I ready what you said perfectly fine.

I think the Israeli government has the right to pass any damn bill it pleases. It is their jobs that are on the line and if the citizens don't like their decisions I am confident said government will be sent packing.

I can certianly see the

at the express pleasure of the majority of voters

but

within the limits of the law

is a noticeable add on.

I could give a damn about what the majority wants, it is after all the "tyranny of the majority" that we have to watch out for.

 

[dust1n]

No I support the bill because it defends the survival of a country and it does not force Arabs to become Jews or die. Big difference.

No, it just forces them to pledge allegiance to a Jewish state or drop their interest in running for a political position.

 

[dust1n]

The republic did not change at that time -it began to change -this illustrates the difference between a document and reality.

Right, and the difference started slowly in reality then was recognized in document and then is still today implementing in reality. But as far as the GOVERNMENT is concerned, it has to recognize the 14th amendment, as has had to since it's initial document change.

Some did not consider blacks to be even human.
When was Martin Luther King, Jr. shot?

Those are special interest groups not acting, not the manifestations of law.

Numbers aren't really the issue. Native Americans -who once far outnumbered settlers -(a genocide I addressed) have a historical link to the lands of the U.S. (and were recently to have received much land back according to the treaties signed way back when -yet did not). If they wandered for thousands of years and then wanted to set up a homeland SPECIFICALLY for native Americans on a small piece of land, would we begrudge them that (probably, which is my point)? They have reservations, but that's quite different. I wouldn't mind seeing a sort of Israel for native Americans -even with an oath of allegiance to them as a requirement for citizenship. Europe, etc. may have sent them here and there, but many Jews wanted to go to the holy land -and the notion of forming a Jewish nation there was not new.

That's a start. Now what about the Bosnians, Armenians, Ukrainians, Sudanese, Tibetans, etc. etc. all the rest of the peoples targeted against genocides?

 

[croak]

Guess what it's not called whining it is called self defense but a different self defense, verbal, something the Arab world not used to.

I'm Arab and if I had to defend myself on RF, I'd do it verbally (because it is rather impossible to do it physically, and because I don't have to physically because there really is no point... lots of becauses's).

what goes around should always come around. Enough is enough, how hungry is the dog? no matter how much you feed it, it wants more and more. It is very rude for Arabs/Muslims to demand respect and rights for Arabs living in Jewish land including Gaza when in return it doesn't give the same respect to Jews living in Arab lands, heck they don't even provide enough rights for their own people. Arabs in Israel enjoy allot more freedom then they would get at home.

Why do you speak of Muslims and Arabs as some monolithic entity? Drives me crazy. It's like saying it's wrong for a Chinese American to protest decisions by the American government because of decisions the Chinese government makes. Does that make sense to you?

And most Arab Israelis are at home. Israel isn't exactly a popular destination for Arab emigrants. Israel is home to all kinds of people, and the citizens of Israel have a right to demand that their rights be respected. If they disagree with measures taken by the government, they will protest, demonstrate, sign petitions... they can do all sorts of things which are legal in Israel. Arab Americans, British Arabs, French Arabs, Brazilian Arabs... they all have rights in their respective states. The fact that a woman can't drive a car in Saudi Arabia has no bearing on the rights of a Saudi Arabian woman to drive a car in Canada, so long as she has a licence. How about an Arab who was born in Israel, in America, who has pledged allegiance to their country? How about Arabs in the IDF? Nah, they should just go back where they came from.

Sigh.

France kicked out all the gypsies they had and all I hear about is how unfair Israel is, unfair to who? to those who constantly have been mistreating us?

Uh, no they didn't. They deported a lot, but not all of them. That's not to mention that some Gypsies are French citizens.

 

[Bismillah]

France kicked out all the gypsies they had and all I hear about is how unfair Israel is, unfair to who? to those who constantly have been mistreating us?

Not to mention there was an extensive thread on that.

 

[Etritonakin]

Right, and the difference started slowly in reality then was recognized in document and then is still today implementing in reality. But as far as the GOVERNMENT is concerned, it has to recognize the 14th amendment, as has had to since it's initial document change.



Those are special interest groups not acting, not the manifestations of law.



That's a start. Now what about the Bosnians, Armenians, Ukrainians, Sudanese, Tibetans, etc. etc. all the rest of the peoples targeted against genocides?

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr... hows about we all just be nice to each other -rather than continually subdividing the world due to intolerance?

I love all yous guys's :yes:

It is not so simple, however (because many refuse to be peaceful and tolerant).

Biblically.....
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

 

[Yona]

I would again like to point out the following, no one is losing their rights, this virtually changes nothing and Israeli Arabs enjoy more freedoms in Israel then they would in the neighboring Islamic countries. For example, the Saudi woman who can't drive in the KSA can drive in Israel. Stop ********.

 

[Caladan]

Why do you speak of Muslims and Arabs as some monolithic entity? Drives me crazy. It's like saying it's wrong for a Chinese American to protest decisions by the American government because of decisions the Chinese government makes. Does that make sense to you?

You are of course right. Semitic Jews in Israel have been suffering from the same phenomenon by the European 'Ashkenazi' establishment. Jews who have lived in the middle east for thousands of years, among the Berber people, among the Egyptians, Iraqis, Persians, Kurds, etc. have been designated by the European Zionist enterprise and the state of Israel as 'eastern Jews now'. in reality of course these people have their own distinct traditions.

 

[Caladan]

I would again like to point out the following, no one is losing their rights, this virtually changes nothing and Israeli Arabs enjoy more freedoms in Israel then they would in the neighboring Islamic countries. For example, the Saudi woman who can't drive in the KSA can drive in Israel. Stop ********.

Should Arab citizens in Israel care whats happening in KSA? Israel may offer its benefits, but why should Arab citizens who are discriminated against 'show their loyalty' to a pseudo Jewish state, many of them live as law abiding citizens, and have been since Israel was formed, what do they need to prove that Israeli Jews don't?

 

[YmirGF]

I could give a damn about what the majority wants, it is after all the "tyranny of the majority" that we have to watch out for.

And yet majority consensus is a hallmark of Islamic jurisprudence. I haven't noted that they are ever overly concerned with the plight of any minority opinions.

 

[dust1n]

I would again like to point out the following, no one is losing their rights, this virtually changes nothing and Israeli Arabs enjoy more freedoms in Israel then they would in the neighboring Islamic countries. For example, the Saudi woman who can't drive in the KSA can drive in Israel. Stop ********.

Did you plan on responding to the post where I showed you example by example the logical fallacies you requested for me to show you after mentioning it? Or is your tactful ignoring of those posts the only way you can really address (or not) me?

 

[dust1n]

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr... hows about we all just be nice to each other -rather than continually subdividing the world due to intolerance?

I love all yous guys's :yes:

It is not so simple, however (because many refuse to be peaceful and tolerant).

Nice way to avoid my point. But hey, if you want to play favorites with your races subject to genocide, go ahead.

 

[Bismillah]

And yet majority consensus is a hallmark of Islamic jurisprudence. I haven't noted that they are ever overly concerned with the plight of any minority opinions.

What does this have to do with the passage of this bill

The ruling parties of most Middle Eastern countries aren't concerned with much if it doesn't concern their power and wealth.