Shermana
Heretic
Hosea 12:1-2 confirms that the "ELohim" that Jacob wrestled was an Angel.
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Israelites were polytheistic
- Thread starter outhouse
- Start date
Hosea 12:1-2 confirms that the "ELohim" that Jacob wrestled was an Angel.
Shermana
Heretic
Forget about John, the point is that, the term "Monotheism" means "Belief in no other beings that are even CALLED gods" in this usage. If you agree that you and I are not the same class as "gods" as El Elyion, then you agree with what I'm saying that Henotheistic Polytheism is not any different than the concept of Monotheism in that there are no other EQUAL gods than El Elion. The point is, this whole Semantic about Monotheism is about no other "gods". So that basically means that if ANYTHING is called a "god" whatever it is, then it can't be so-called "Monotheistic". The reason I referenced John was due to its historical application which basically agrees with what I'm saying, but we can toss that aside.
But we both understand that these "gods" which you and I are clearly called as Israelites, are not quite the same class as Angels and the Most high god. So where does that leave us with this term "Monotheism" if there are different so-called "gods" who are not quite on the same level of each other? Does this term "Monotheism" imply that a "god" is a "god" regardless of the use of the word?
As for the reference on the two definitions of Henotheism (aka Belief in a highest god among other gods vs Belief in one god who is just one among others), will Dictionary.com suffice?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/henotheism
Definition 2, which notes it as the holding SUPREME divine attributes (as opposed to "lesser Divine attributes") is clearly distinguished from definition 1, which I don't see as anything different than "Monolatry" and I believe definition 1 is a later use of the term whereas #2 is its original use.
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outhouse
Atheistically
I understand this definition quite well.
and nothing at all you have posted is evidence yawheh was worshipped as a primary deity by a group of multi cultural people.
You have provided evidence that some people were henotheistic within the culture, like the authors of J. But definately not E
you have done a decent job of shopwing some people at one time worshipped Yawheh as primary
But we all know that to be true
Henotheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
is the belief and worship of a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities that may also be worshipped
Your also missing how important Asherah was in early Israelite culture. "queen of heaven" or the wife of yahweh is on pretty equal footing.
in 800 BC ish the drawing I told you about is also placing them on even turf
El didnt magically merge with Yahweh at some mythical time period, what date ISH hasnt even been addressed no matter how many times ive asked. Ill take that as you dont know.
Oh and Stark is a scholar, you cannot discount his view with a Nuh Uh! A proper rebuttle to his findings would be in order
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tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
That is what we have been saying all along.
The progression within polytheism.
Unfortunately, we can not know those exact dates, as this progression did not occur across the entire land of Canaan in one single moment.
What we do know is that the progression occurred.
outhouse
Atheistically
and I have agreed within these aspects.
and there in lies the problem defining the progression from polytheism to henotheism in early Israelite cultures
now if we look at some current scholarships, they state its obvoius that the Yahwist king in the 7th century solidified the country in a monotheistic belief in Yahweh, and that not all the country were Yahwist or behind Yawism as evident in the OT.
im not argueing against you as much as im wanting more accurate dates. it would be great to know how Karen and Thom places dates on those different evolutions of deities as noted in here vid and in his work.
outhouse
Atheistically
genesis chapter 12 abraham is described as worshipping El Shaddai, the Canaanite deity as his primary deity.
Gen 28 jacob climbs the ladder and talks with El Elyon.
Jacob also makes El Shaddai his Elohim as his primary deity.
Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is widely held by modern biblical scholarship that the Patriarchs, including Abraham, are not clearly and unambiguously attested in the Hebrew Bible earlier than the Babylonian exile. This has led modern scholars to propose that the entire Torah, which include the stories of Abraham, all originated from literary circles either during the Persian period of the late 6th century BCE, to the 5th century Babylonian rule
so this looks like they wrote El in at a pretty late date, allthough admitted the date is debated. But what isnt being dated is a early date, and modern scholarships place abrahams creation much later.
then as exodus is written Yahweh takes over.
Book of Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
According to current thinking, a first draft (the Yahwist) was probably written in the 6th century BCE during the Babylonian exile
this is a group of people who were deifnately henotheistic.
yahweh was Israelites war god early on but not completely their primary deity [yet]
Gen 28 jacob climbs the ladder and talks with El Elyon.
Jacob also makes El Shaddai his Elohim as his primary deity.
Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is widely held by modern biblical scholarship that the Patriarchs, including Abraham, are not clearly and unambiguously attested in the Hebrew Bible earlier than the Babylonian exile. This has led modern scholars to propose that the entire Torah, which include the stories of Abraham, all originated from literary circles either during the Persian period of the late 6th century BCE, to the 5th century Babylonian rule
so this looks like they wrote El in at a pretty late date, allthough admitted the date is debated. But what isnt being dated is a early date, and modern scholarships place abrahams creation much later.
then as exodus is written Yahweh takes over.
Book of Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
According to current thinking, a first draft (the Yahwist) was probably written in the 6th century BCE during the Babylonian exile
this is a group of people who were deifnately henotheistic.
yahweh was Israelites war god early on but not completely their primary deity [yet]
outhouse
Atheistically
Now taking the above material and combing it with this below, we start to see a picture and time when polytheism ended as ive described, while having yahwist henothism present by different groups going back to 950 BC with the multiple collections of J
I think its safe to say this was a early period of milti cultural people who were both polytheistic and henotheistic before montheism emerges
History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Israelite monotheism was a gradual process which began with the normal beliefs and practices of the ancient world.[72] The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like many Ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on the cult of the ancestors and the worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[73] The major deities were not numerous El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god in the early period.[74] By the early monarchy El and Yahweh had become unified and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult,[74] although she continued to be popular at a community level until Persian times.[75] Yahweh, later the national god of both Israel and Judah seems to have originated in Edom and Midian in southern Canaan, and may have been brought north to Israel by the Kenites and Midianites at an early stage.[76] With the emergence of monarchy at the beginning of Iron Age II the king promoted his own family god, Yahweh, as the god of the kingdom, but beyond the royal court religion continued to be both polytheistic and family-centered, as it was also for other societies in the Ancient Near East.[77]
There is a general consensus among scholars that the first formative event in the emergence of the distinctive religion described in the Bible was triggered by the destruction of Israel by Assyria in c.722 BCE. Refugees came south to Judah, bringing with them laws and a Prophetic tradition that Yahweh was the only god who should be served. These beliefs were adopted by the "people of the land", meaning the landed families who provided the administrative class of the kingdom, and in 640 BCE these circles were decisive in placing on the throne the eight-year-old Josiah. Judah at this time was a vassal of Assyria, but Assyrian power collapsed in the 630s, and in around 622 Josiah and the Deuteronomists, as the circle around him are called by modern scholars, launched a bid for independence expressed as loyalty to "Yahweh alone" and the law-code in the book of Deuteronomy, written in the form of a treaty between Judah and Yahweh to replace the vassal-treaty with Assyria.[78] The earliest Israelite inscription found, relating to Yahveh as the redeemer of Jerusalem, dates to 7th century BCE. Beit Lehi also contains the oldest known Hebrew writing of the word Jerusalem It's written as the inscription I am YHWH thy Lord. I will accept the cities of Judah and I will redeem Jerusalem and Absolve us oh merciful God. Absolve us oh YHWH." [79]
According to the theology of the Deuteronomists the terms of the treaty with Yahweh were that he would preserve both the city and the king in return for their worship and obedience to the law-code. The destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple, and the Davidic dynasty by Babylon in 587/586 BCE was therefore a deeply traumatic event, and led to much theological reflection on the meaning of the national tragedy. The solution, set out in the series of history books from Joshua and Judges to Samuel and Kings, was to interpret the Babylonian destruction as divinely-ordained punishment for the failure of the kings to worship Yahweh alone.[78]
I think its safe to say this was a early period of milti cultural people who were both polytheistic and henotheistic before montheism emerges
History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Israelite monotheism was a gradual process which began with the normal beliefs and practices of the ancient world.[72] The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like many Ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on the cult of the ancestors and the worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[73] The major deities were not numerous El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god in the early period.[74] By the early monarchy El and Yahweh had become unified and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult,[74] although she continued to be popular at a community level until Persian times.[75] Yahweh, later the national god of both Israel and Judah seems to have originated in Edom and Midian in southern Canaan, and may have been brought north to Israel by the Kenites and Midianites at an early stage.[76] With the emergence of monarchy at the beginning of Iron Age II the king promoted his own family god, Yahweh, as the god of the kingdom, but beyond the royal court religion continued to be both polytheistic and family-centered, as it was also for other societies in the Ancient Near East.[77]
There is a general consensus among scholars that the first formative event in the emergence of the distinctive religion described in the Bible was triggered by the destruction of Israel by Assyria in c.722 BCE. Refugees came south to Judah, bringing with them laws and a Prophetic tradition that Yahweh was the only god who should be served. These beliefs were adopted by the "people of the land", meaning the landed families who provided the administrative class of the kingdom, and in 640 BCE these circles were decisive in placing on the throne the eight-year-old Josiah. Judah at this time was a vassal of Assyria, but Assyrian power collapsed in the 630s, and in around 622 Josiah and the Deuteronomists, as the circle around him are called by modern scholars, launched a bid for independence expressed as loyalty to "Yahweh alone" and the law-code in the book of Deuteronomy, written in the form of a treaty between Judah and Yahweh to replace the vassal-treaty with Assyria.[78] The earliest Israelite inscription found, relating to Yahveh as the redeemer of Jerusalem, dates to 7th century BCE. Beit Lehi also contains the oldest known Hebrew writing of the word Jerusalem It's written as the inscription I am YHWH thy Lord. I will accept the cities of Judah and I will redeem Jerusalem and Absolve us oh merciful God. Absolve us oh YHWH." [79]
According to the theology of the Deuteronomists the terms of the treaty with Yahweh were that he would preserve both the city and the king in return for their worship and obedience to the law-code. The destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple, and the Davidic dynasty by Babylon in 587/586 BCE was therefore a deeply traumatic event, and led to much theological reflection on the meaning of the national tragedy. The solution, set out in the series of history books from Joshua and Judges to Samuel and Kings, was to interpret the Babylonian destruction as divinely-ordained punishment for the failure of the kings to worship Yahweh alone.[78]
Precisely. the term 'elohim caries with it a great deal of ambiguity. Hosea serves to disambiguate the reference, i.e., to inform us that the Jacob's adversary was an angel rather than a god. Pay closer attention next time.
No, the point is that you understand Psalm 82 no better than you understand Hosea 12. As for ...
the term "Monotheism" means "Belief in no other beings that are even CALLED gods"
this desperate attempt to retrieve your polemic is comic at best.
I have on good authority it was 622 bce -- probably in Elul. :yes:
(By the way, it's useful to give some though to the demographic chaos that accompanies 2 Kings.)
outhouse
Atheistically
isnt that ignorant, and hosea is a known yahwist source
you let your bais show, knowing this was from two different sources, one of them viewing El as their primary deity, the other Yahweh
Jacob wrestling with the Angel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."
But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
The man asked him, "What is your name?"
"Jacob," he answered.
Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob's hip was touched near the tendon.
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
My understanding of a deity or elah is based on Quran; I don't believe in any deity to worship except one (Allah) which has attributes as mentioned in detail in Quran though other religion could have a different name of Him in their own language like Yahweh; this is my belief.
Shermana
Heretic
Not at all, the word "Angel" does not state a classification of being, it is merely a title that means "messenger", it does not mean they are not 'gods'. In no way does it imply that the "god" is not a "god". A "god" can be a "messenger" aka "Angel".
Shermana
Heretic
Okay thanks for the attempt at rebuttal minus any actual counterpoint, but I think its clear whose response is desparate here. If anything, I appreciate you revealing that you think "angel" means an actual type of being as opposed to a characteristic/job description.
Heck, forget Psalm 82:6, look at Psalm 82:1. He sits in the "Midst of the gods". Why don't you explain what "midst of the gods" means and how it implies that the "angels" (messengers) are not called "gods"?
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outhouse
Atheistically
man it was a pathetic weak attempt by jay, to use one of multiple sources written from culturally different jews from different time periods.
even if Hosea is older,. it doesnt mean there was not different versions of the fable in oral trdaition long before it was ever written.
outhouse
Atheistically
why not historically study how your deity evolved over the year by the many different cultures that are said to have created him.
outhouse
Atheistically
you donty have any good authority
just biased snide replies that go against your biased personal opinion
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
I still think it is contradictory for you to keep referencing Karen Armstrong when she references the strong influence of henotheism and monolotry within polytheism in the eventual monotheistic tradition of Judaism Israel in her latest work.
And Thom Stark makes constant reference to Yahweh as the main tribal god of the Israelites, in other words, henotheism.
So really, I am unsure what it is you are arguing here.
outhouse
Atheistically
I understand your not sure
Im argueing the same thing as Karen and Thom exactly, is my point.
there were Israelites early on that went from polytheism to henotheism, but not the culture as a whole. they remained polytheistic until the switch to monotheism.
what they are argueing is that certain sects were henotheistic to yahweh, and I agree. but that wasnt the whole culture, Israelites were not static, and different beliefs were held by different groups. it is a mistake to view one sect and claim it represents the whole culture.
Thom and Karen are not making that mistake, either am I, Finlestien and Dever are all claiming what I do
you can take the culture and combine polytheism and henotheism to the different cultures at one time period. and its exactly what we see