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Israelites were polytheistic

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Has anyone here mentioned the "culture as a whole"?
Even after Israel became predominately monotheistic, we cannot say the entire culture of the land that encompassed Israel/Judea at that time was entirely monotheistic.

Can you show me one culture or tribe in Canaan, Israel, Judea from 800 BCE to 200 BCE that was purely polytheistic with absolutely no henotheistic tendencies?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
why not historically study how your deity evolved over the year by the many different cultures that are said to have created him. :shrug:

No documented history exists who could prove that with certainty, in my opinion; history and science are recent human phenomena.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Can you show me one culture or tribe in Canaan, Israel, Judea from 800 BCE to 200 BCE that was purely polytheistic with absolutely no henotheistic tendencies?


so what your saying is that the word polytheism should be stripped from all dictionaries?

tendencies? sure


Canaanite religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





Canaanite religion is the name for the group of Ancient Semitic religions practiced by the Canaanites living in the ancient Levant from at least the early Bronze Age through the first centuries of the Common Era.
Canaanite religion was polytheistic, and in some cases monolatristic.

Canaanite religion was strongly influenced by their more powerful and populous neighbors, and shows clear influence of Mesopotamian and Egyptian religious practices. Like other people of the Ancient Near East Canaanite religious beliefs were polytheistic, with families typically focusing worship on ancestral household gods and goddesses, the Elohim, while acknowledging the existence of other deities such as Baal and El.



pretty much decribed as identical to early Israelites
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
so what your saying is that the word polytheism should be stripped from all dictionaries?

No, what I am saying is that henotheism and monolatry are polytheistic. So when you post your little Wiki clips that say "Polytheism! Polytheism! Polytheism!", you are doing absolutely nothing to support your claims and proving to anyone who reads this thread that you have absolutely no idea what theological anthropology and concepts entail.

I really do not expect you to admit to your flawed reasoning, but maybe this will help you understand where I am going from here.

Ad nauseam is a Latin term used to describe something unpleasurable which has continued "to [the point of] nausea".[1][2] For example, the sentence, "This topic has been discussed ad nauseam", signifies that the topic in question has been discussed extensively, and that those involved in the discussion have grown tired of it.
WIKI
 

outhouse

Atheistically
No, what I am saying is that henotheism and monolatry are polytheistic. So when you post your little Wiki clips that say "Polytheism! Polytheism! Polytheism!", you are doing absolutely nothing to support your claims and proving to anyone who reads this thread that you have absolutely no idea what theological anthropology and concepts entail.

I really do not expect you to admit to your flawed reasoning, but maybe this will help you understand where I am going from here.

Ad nauseam is a Latin term used to describe something unpleasurable which has continued "to [the point of] nausea".[1][2] For example, the sentence, "This topic has been discussed ad nauseam", signifies that the topic in question has been discussed extensively, and that those involved in the discussion have grown tired of it.
WIKI

your ignorance of early israelite culture is ad nauseam


you have not shown Israelites were henotheistic polytheism, while I have shown they were in fact polytheistic.


The Canaanite wiki link is a classic example. It describes polytheism and a monolotry and is silent on henotheism, theres a reason why they dont call it heotheism. :facepalm:
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
you have not shown israelites were henotheistic polytheism, while i have shown they were in fact polytheistic.


the canaanite wiki link is a classic example. It describes polytheism and a monolotry and is silent on henotheism, theres a reason why they dont call it heotheism. :facepalm:

... This is all based on percentages of belief in yahweh, not a monlotry or henotheistic belief

ok....
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I really do not expect you to admit to your flawed reasoning

your more stubborn then I am bro.


according to you all previous cultures were henotheistic and we should burry the term polytheism just because you cant for the life of you, figure out the definition differences of henotheism, and apply that to the differences of polytheism, then explain those differences in how they apply to different cultures.

Henotheistic | Define Henotheistic at Dictionary.com

1. the worship of a particular god, as by a family or tribe, without disbelieving in the existence of others.




Now at times Israelites wroshipped Yahweh and Asherah as the queen of heaven, and at times El and Asherah, before they compiles El's mythology with Yahwehs.


your fighting a fact that cannot be asserted that early Israelites placed one deity over others, when combinations are obviously worshipped

I have also agreed that henotheistic groups belonged to the Israelite culture that exsired with the polytheistic groups, and these deities and beliefs that they worhipped evolved constantly
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist

That's pretty much what on gets when their opponent has only studied Wikipedia and really nothing else.

Throughout this thread, I have agreed with you, and I think in the end, it really comes down to something I mentioned at the very beginning, and you seem to have implied as well. Some just don't seem to fully understand what henotheistic and monolatrous truly mean or entail.


On a side note, and not directed at you, the Queen of Heaven does not refer to Asherah. Really, by the time of the Judges, at least, Asherah had disappeared as a goddess. The Queen of heaven may refer to a different goddess, Mark Smith breaks it down in his book. It could also refer to Wisdom, which some have postulated.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
But then ...
Asherah the Name of a Syrian Goddess.

Asherah was also the name of a Syrian goddess. In the El-Amarna tablets of the fifteenth century B.C. her name appears with the determinative for deity as a part of the name Arad-Ashirta (or 'Ebed-Asherah). It also appears in a Sumerian hymn published by Reisner ("Sumerisch-Babylonische Hymnen," p. 92), on a hematite cylinder ("Zeit. f. Assyr." vi. 161), and in an astronomical text of the Arsacide period (ib. vi. 241). She appears to have been the consort of the god Amurru, a Baal of the Lebanon region (compare Jensen, "Zeit. f. Assyr." xi. 302-305). Arad-Ashirta in the El-Amarna tablets represents not only a sheik, but a clan, and is possibly the one which afterward became the tribe of Asher. Possibly a trace of this goddess is to be found in an inscription from Citium in Cyprus, which dedicates an object to "My lady mother Ashera" (compare Schröder, "Z. D. M. G." xxxv. 424). Many scholars, however, interpret the passage otherwise (compare Moore, l.c.). Hommel has recently announced ("Expository Times," xi. 190) that he has discovered in a Minæan inscription a goddess Athirat. phonetically equivalent to Asherah. This would indicate that Asherah was a name for an old Semitic goddess long before the fifteenth century B.C.; but for the present this must be regarded merely in the light of a possibility. The relation of this goddess to the pole called Asherah in the Bible is a difficult problem. The name in the Bible is masculine; the plural "Asherim" occurring sixteen times, and the plural "Asherot" but three times. The latter is clearly an error. Asherah must be a nomen unitatis. G. Hoffmann has shown ("Ueber Einige Phönizische Inschriften," pp. 26 et seq.) that these posts originally marked the limits of the sacred precincts, and that in the Ma'sub inscription it is the equivalent of "sacred enclosure." Moore finds in this fact the explanation of the use of the word in Assyrian (ashirtu, ashrâti; eshirtu, eshrâti), in the sense of sanctuary. Hommel fancies that he sees in the original form of the ideogram for Ishtar (compare Thureau-Dangin, "L'Ecriture Cunéforme," No. 294), a post on which hangs the skin of an animal.

Quite apart, however, from Hommel's somewhat imaginary conjecture, the Assyrian and Phenician use of the word in the sense of "sanctuary," taken in connection with the Arabian and Syrian use of it as the name of a goddess, indicates that the posts were used at the sanctuaries of the primitive Semitic mother-goddess, and that in course of time their name attached itself in certain quarters to the goddess herself, and has survived in South Arabia and Syria. When, therefore, the late editors of the Old Testament books made of the Asherah a fetish or cultus god, history was but repeating itself (see Ashtoreth; Worship, Idol; Maẓẓebah; Phenicia).

[source]
I am not at home and therefore have no access to my books, but I would hesitate before claiming that Ashera had disappeared as a goddess throughout the Semitic landscape.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Some just don't seem to fully understand what henotheistic and monolatrous truly mean or entail.

According to your interpretation of the terms (of which I've shown there are apparently different definitions from different people, though the original use of the term when coined seems to imply what I'm saying), what is the difference between Henotheism and Monolatry if Henotheism doesn't imply that the one god is the SUPREME god who reigns over all others?

Tumbleweed said:

Henotheism- a form of polytheism with a specialized worship of one deity, but one may recognize and pay homage to other deities.
Monolotry- a form of polytheism with the strict worship of a singular deity, but acknowledging the existence of other deities,

But I'm not seeing anything about Henotheism "paying homage" to other deities, what would that imply exactly? Making sacrifices? Praising? Worship of Acknowledging subjection to in ADDITION? In that case, I don't see the difference between Polytheism.

Polytheism- a belief in multiple deities.

And here we have a snag as I brought up before: "Believe in" can mean two TOTALLY DIFFERENT things. Does it mean merely acknowledging the existence of other deities? Okay, no different than the definition of Monolatry. Does it mean WORSHIP OF and subjection of other deities? I don't see much difference than with the above definition of Henotheism (of which I'm having difficulty finding a source for the use of the term as such other than exclusive worship of one deity among acknowledged others).

If Polytheism means acknowledging the existence of other beings that are merely called "gods", the BIble is 100% Polytheistic and so am I. So does the word mean "acknowledge existence of" or "fall down and worship and accept subjection to", quite vastly different meanings with the same word. What word would we use if it wasn't being described in English or a language where "believe in" can mean two drastically different things?

"Henotheism, A God-Eat-God Cosmic System"

Henotheism, not monotheism, is the theology of Moses and the Prophets. This fact is generally accepted by scholars, as any number of authorities can attest.
What is Henotheism? Nothing better defines Henotheism than what Saint Paul the Apostle told the Corinthians:

There are many gods, but for us there is one God.[1]

Henotheism is the belief that many gods exist, but that only one God should be worshipped. Unlike monotheism, there are truly many gods and they really do exist. Yet unlike polytheism, not all the gods are worshipped. Only one of them is worshipped, and the rest are profane.

I'm not alone in my understanding of the terms, so do you think the above is a misunderstanding of the terms? It appears they think "believe in" means what I'm saying it means to, which is more than just "acknowledging the existence of". In that case, the Israelite religion is NOT polytheistic. Neither would Henotheism be a "form of Polytheism" if the definition of Polytheism implies more than just the acknowledgement of the deities (which I believe is the actual use of the term, by "believe in").


Really, by the time of the Judges, at least, Asherah had disappeared as a goddess

Where do you derive this from?
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Good books are rarely found in an outhouse. One of my favorites is Smith's "The Origins of Biblical Monotheism" wherein we read:
At first glance, Israelite monotheism would seem theoretically to stand at odds with the imagery of Israelite assembly with its multiplicity of divinities, even if they are minor or subservient to Yahweh as their absolute king. In fact, the divine assembly is not oppositional to monotheistic statements in biblical literature. For example, it is commonly held by biblical scholars (including Miller) that the opening of "Second Isaiah" (Isaiah 40) involves a divine council scene, yet this chapter is part of a larger work that contains the greatest number of monotheistic statements in the Bible (addressed in chapter 10). Divine council language and scenes also appear in the "priestly work" of the Pentateuch and post-exilic books (Zechariah and Daniel), which assumedly are monotheistic. In other words, monotheism requires that one divine assembly headed by one divine ruler, but it makes little or no impact on the language of the assembly itself. Moreover, as noted, it probably reduced and modified the sense of divinity attached to "angels."
 

outhouse

Atheistically
the Queen of Heaven does not refer to Asherah

well thats just goofy right there

because here it states possibly!

Asherah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



She is identified as the wife or consort of the Sumerian Anu or Ugaritic El, the oldest deities of their pantheons.[1][2] This role gave her a similarly high rank in the Ugaritic pantheon.[3] The name Allat (Elat, Ilat) in the Sanchuniathon is clearly associated with Asherah, because the same common epithet of "the goddess par excellence," is used to describe her.[4] The Book of Jeremiah written circa 628 BC possibly refers to Asherah when it uses the title "Queen of Heaven"


heres the part that hurts your judgement

Scholars have claimed that Asherah was edited out of the Bible and that most Israelites worshiped multiple gods, including Asherah, before 586 B.C.

The majority of biblical scholars the world over now accept that Asherah at one time was worshiped as the consort of Yahweh (the national god of Israel).[9] The evidence includes, for example, an 8th century combination of iconography and inscriptions discovered at Kuntillet Ajrud in the northern Sinai desert[10] where a storage jar shows three anthropomorphic figures and an inscription that refers to "Yahweh … and his Asherah".[11][12] Further evidence includes the many female figurines unearthed in ancient Israel, supporting the view that Asherah functioned as a goddess and consort of Yahweh and was worshiped as the Queen of Heaven.

One more time for those not reading


supporting the view that Asherah functioned as a goddess and consort of Yahweh and was worshiped as the Queen of Heaven.


And since I understand your position and that it doesnt follow that of most scholars, I doubt you will ever be able to give a decent rebuttle as to why Yahweh and his Asherah would apply as queen of heaven to polytheistic Yahwist
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Good books are rarely found in an outhouse. One of my favorites is Smith's "The Origins of Biblical Monotheism" wherein we read:


they say when some people get old and bitter, they get biased, I have to wonder how true that statement is
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Once again, thanks for adding to my reading list.:yes:


as already stated you have to get his updated work, he changed his position


why doesnt this say henothism by Smith? it does say polytheism exactly as I have stated and when.

The Bible and Interpretation



On the whole, Smith's book -- following a number of other scholars-- shows how Israelite polytheism was a feature of Israelite religion down through the end of the Iron Age and how monotheism emerged in the seventh and sixth centuries.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
But then ...
I am not at home and therefore have no access to my books, but I would hesitate before claiming that Ashera had disappeared as a goddess throughout the Semitic landscape.

I don't mean to imply that she was gone totally as a goddess, just that for the Hebrews, any worship of her had passed away from a pretty early time.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Really, by the time of the Judges, at least, Asherah had disappeared as a goddess.
... would hesitate before claiming that Ashera had disappeared as a goddess throughout the Semitic landscape.
I don't mean to imply that she was gone totally as a goddess, just that for the Hebrews, any worship of her had passed away from a pretty early time.
Pretty early, as in "by the time of the Judges, at least", i.e., before the advent of Saul. The claim is surprising. Even Smith (who you reference) writes:
Many scholars believe that the asherah in the Jerusalem temple was none other than the symbol of the goddess (2 Kings 17:16), either a tree or wooden pole, and that the image (pesel) was hers ("the image of the asherah/Asherah," 2 Kings 21:7); this evidence would suggest that Asherah was a goddess venerated in the Jerusalem temple devoted to Yahweh and was therefore regarded as his consort. To this evidence, scholars would add the eighth-century inscriptions from Kuntillet 'Ajrud and Khirbet el-Qom that mention "Yahweh and his asherah." Some commentators simply regard "asherah" here as the name of the goddess, whereas others see it as her symbol, since divine names generally do not take a pronominal suffix. In either case, most scholars who comment on these inscriptions' references to ashram use them to support the idea that Yahweh and Asherah were a divine couple in Ancient Israel and Judah. Although such putative "ditheism" was criticized by prophetic critics from the eighth century onward and transmuted into more acceptable forms (such as personified Wisdom rendered also as a tree in Proverbs 3), some argue that this form of worship was well known. Indeed, prophetic condemnation are often taken precisely as evidence for such worship; after all, so goes the reasoning, why condemn something unless it is a problem?

- The Origins of Biblical Monotheism
And your claim is even more surprising given the geopolitical and demographic changes that characterized much of the period covered by 2 Kings.

As for the topic in general, to anyone who has taken the time to study the matter the
Israel was polytheistic (vs) Israel was monotheistic
counterposition seems more childish than ignorant, and it is certainly ignorant.
 
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