It seems to me that many of the atheists on here are just here because they hate Christianity.

[McBell]

Your pov is acknowledged and understood.

Thank you.

I'm saying you are wrong Mestemia. Just like atheists are usually wrong.

You have not demonstrated I am wrong.
You have merely declared it.

I am not saying you are wrong.
I am saying you have not convinced me you are right.

So you're saying that death and the afterlife are not important?

No, I am not saying it is unimportant.
I am saying I am not convinced of any after life.

That our short lives are all there is and all that will be?

I have accepted the more likely possibility that this life is all there is.
I also accept that I may very well be wrong.

The believers think it is of utmost importance.

Some people need a special friend crutch to help them through life.
I am not one of them.

Listen to George Harrison before he died. He's not referring to Christianity. Sorry, it's long, but listen to the first part of the interview on death.

I disagree.
The most important thing is how you live your life, not what awaits after death.
Why?
Because once you die, you are done with this life.
I have come to terms with that reality.
Don't get me wrong, i am not a fan of it, but I have come to terms with it.

IF, and in my opinion that is a mighty big if, there is an after life, there is no interaction with this one.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Fair enough. I don't know. The article was differentiating wakeful consciousness vs sleeping consciousness (the body and brain are disengaged). I said mind to which I correct now.

I respect your ability to be reasonable.

Do you really mean brain? That dreams are physical representations? How do you explain near-death experiences when one is pronounced clinically dead. Neurologists have explained that the electrical currents in the nerves still go on.

In short, Near Death Experiences are exactly what the name suggests, a product of a brain dying. They're similar to dreams and hallucinations - A last ditch attempt at making sense of the sensory input coming into it. Also, this is not too unlike a strong religious experience, and why I imagine many religious followers always hearken back to their conversion moment in times of weakness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_studies
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers/extreme-gravity.html

I can liken it to being high. Under the euphoria of some narcotics, people experience things that they are convinced were true states of being once they come back to the real world. They walk around for days, weeks, months, or sometimes whole lifetimes convinced that the experiences that they had were visions of a different (or better) reality. DMT comes to mind, right off hand. But I've had fairly similar experiences by just smoking a whole lot of hash...

The problem with those claims is that they are delusional. The variable is the ingesting of a foreign substance, produced to cause those types of experiences. The variable in a NDE, for example, is the extreme stress that the brain is experiencing. In both instances, there are non-normal circumstances occurring and the experiences had while under such duress cannot be equated to those had when normal.

BTW like the Tom Cruise gif. Oblivion?

Yes. Good film. Classic sci-fi twist.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Not heaven. That's Christianity. I'm just talking about an afterlife.

So switching out 'heaven' for 'afterlife' changes things? How so?

 

[SkepticX]

Am I wrong? Can any of you atheists say anything good about Christianity at all?

I have little to nothing positive to say about any theistic aspect of any religion, but I'm a big fan of service/community-centered religious communities, and of most believers (even many fundamentalist types). The problem is that religious communities are really all about community. The religious aspects of these communities are distractions at best, and enablers for the darkest aspects of human nature at worst (so they run from neutral to seriously nasty).

But I'm guessing the odds are at least fair that you have little or no trouble (particularly comparably) with those who "go into all nations" and spread your religion and those compatible.

No?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Which is terrible for those of us alive on Earth today. It is not an effective way to build a society. I personally don't believe that to be true and many a terrible person goes unpunished because someone is deluded into thinking that god will punish them some time later. But now in the current covenant with the unchanging forever the same god (sarcasm) I can rape, murder, steal, cheat and whatever I damn well please. I can get away scott free without any punishment on earth. I can do this for years and then turn over a new leaf. Let god into my life and be forgiven by his grace.
So which is it? Will all wrongs be righted or will I be given grace?

First, the temporary Constitution of the Mosaic Law was only for one nation, one country, and that was the ancient nation of ancient Israel. That old Law code ended with Jesus - Romans 10:4

Yes, agree that many have been deluded into thinking god will punish later...
' current covenant ' (aka Jesus' NEW command to have self-sacrificing love for others as he did - John 13:34-35)
is for the Christian Congregation. If a person in the Christian congregation rapes, murders, steals, etc. God's Word (Bible) says he is to put out of the Christian Congregation. ( see 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 ).
That one is No longer considered as being a Christian. It is up to ' Caesar ' to do or choose the punishing.
As God showed mercy to King David and Bath-sheba, mercy is still extended to repentant ones - 2 Peter 3:9
We do Not ' personally ' judge immoral people, but God does the judging according to Hebrews 13:4
Some people have turned over a new leaf after many years but often they are the exception to the rule.
I think the undeserved kindness of grace is extended to sincerely genuine repentant ones.
Researchers have shown there generally is Not death-bed repenting, but rather death-bed regretting.
Regretting Not building the dog house for the son, or regretting Not building the doll house for the daughter, etc.

There seems to be an on-going in-gathering process according to Matthew 25:31-45
Jesus judges on the basis of people's reactions to the good news message - Matthew 24:14 - as it is being proclaimed world wide today. Evil will be eliminated by removing all who are bent/ on practicing evil.
There is No punishment Now outside of being put out of the Christian congregation, No future punishment, but rather just destruction forever for those bent/ on doing evil. - Psalms 92:7
How can a someone who is destroyed forever be punished after destruction ?
Was there post-mortem punishment for Adam ?_____ Rather, Adam simply returned to dust - Genesis 3:19
So, by the end of the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14, how people treat God's people will be a judgement factor of whether one is considered as being a humble ' sheep ' or Not - Matthew 25:40. The ' everlasting punishment ' of Matthew 25:46 is as defined for us at 2 Thessalonians 1:9 as: destruction. Everlasting destruction ( annihilation ) - Psalms 92:7
ALL of us now need to 'repent' so that by grace we can be classed as being a righteous one of Matthew 25:37 and can gain everlasting life on Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall. Then, all wrongs will be righted for those classed as being humble ' sheep '-like ones.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That's not what atheists believe.
Atheists believe that after you die, that is it, kaput, no more, worm food. You will exist just like you did 20-years before you were born; with a few small differences, hopefully people will have fond memories of you and your genes will be present in your off-spring

To me, Jesus also believed at death one is No longer considered as existing - John 11:12-14
What helps is if God has fond memories of you so that you can come back into existence on resurrection day.
( meaning to me Jesus' millennium-long judgement day of governing over Earth for a thousand years )
Both the righteous and unrighteous can have a future resurrection according to Acts of the Apostles 24:15
As far as the third group ( the evil/wicked ) they will be destroyed forever according to Psalms 92:7

 

[Monk Of Reason]

First, the temporary Constitution of the Mosaic Law was only for one nation, one country, and that was the ancient nation of ancient Israel. That old Law code ended with Jesus - Romans 10:4

Yes, agree that many have been deluded into thinking god will punish later...
' current covenant ' (aka Jesus' NEW command to have self-sacrificing love for others as he did - John 13:34-35)
is for the Christian Congregation. If a person in the Christian congregation rapes, murders, steals, etc. God's Word (Bible) says he is to put out of the Christian Congregation. ( see 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 ).
That one is No longer considered as being a Christian. It is up to ' Caesar ' to do or choose the punishing.
As God showed mercy to King David and Bath-sheba, mercy is still extended to repentant ones - 2 Peter 3:9
We do Not ' personally ' judge immoral people, but God does the judging according to Hebrews 13:4
Some people have turned over a new leaf after many years but often they are the exception to the rule.
I think the undeserved kindness of grace is extended to sincerely genuine repentant ones.
Researchers have shown there generally is Not death-bed repenting, but rather death-bed regretting.
Regretting Not building the dog house for the son, or regretting Not building the doll house for the daughter, etc.

There seems to be an on-going in-gathering process according to Matthew 25:31-45
Jesus judges on the basis of people's reactions to the good news message - Matthew 24:14 - as it is being proclaimed world wide today. Evil will be eliminated by removing all who are bent/ on practicing evil.
There is No punishment Now outside of being put out of the Christian congregation, No future punishment, but rather just destruction forever for those bent/ on doing evil. - Psalms 92:7
How can a someone who is destroyed forever be punished after destruction ?
Was there post-mortem punishment for Adam ?_____ Rather, Adam simply returned to dust - Genesis 3:19
So, by the end of the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14, how people treat God's people will be a judgement factor of whether one is considered as being a humble ' sheep ' or Not - Matthew 25:40. The ' everlasting punishment ' of Matthew 25:46 is as defined for us at 2 Thessalonians 1:9 as: destruction. Everlasting destruction ( annihilation ) - Psalms 92:7
ALL of us now need to 'repent' so that by grace we can be classed as being a righteous one of Matthew 25:37 and can gain everlasting life on Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall. Then, all wrongs will be righted for those classed as being humble ' sheep '-like ones.

I believe that the original bit of discussion we had was weather or not Christianity has been used to induce harm. Am I right? Is that what we are still discussing because I feel that we have already come to the agreement that yes it has.

 

[psychoslice]

I myself don't have much time for most of Christianity, but that doesn't mean I hate them, someone has to keep them in check, like a bugger, or they would take over everything.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe that the original bit of discussion we had was weather or not Christianity has been used to induce harm. Am I right? Is that what we are still discussing because I feel that we have already come to the agreement that yes it has.

'So-called apostate Christianity ' has been used to induce harm.
To me, Jesus' words prove true that MANY come ' in his name ' but prove false.
So, yes, false clergy teachings have induced harm world wide.
I would Not say the teachings of Jesus, as found in Scripture, have caused harm.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I myself don't have much time for most of Christianity, but that doesn't mean I hate them, someone has to keep them in check, like a bugger, or they would take over everything.

To me, Jesus also did Not find much time for most of those teaching religious teachings of his day. - Matthew 15:9
That did Not mean Jesus hated them, but rather to keep them in check as recorded in Matthew 23 so they would Not take over everything.

To me, Most of today's ' so-called Christianity ' falls into the MANY category of who would come ' in Jesus' name ' but proving false as Jesus said would happen at Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

'So-called apostate Christianity ' has been used to induce harm.
To me, Jesus' words prove true that MANY come ' in his name ' but prove false.
So, yes, false clergy teachings have induced harm world wide.
I would Not say the teachings of Jesus, as found in Scripture, have caused harm.

Why have the rest of the bible then? I have clearly pointed out several portions wherein harm is not only condoned but outright demanded. I have pointed out that Jesus stated that he did not come to destroy the law. Perhaps you adhere to some kind of interpretation where that still means that the law doesn't matter for some reason but even then what of Paul's words on homosexuality and the place of women? He came after Jesus and unless he is an apostate christian what is the defense for him?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Why have the rest of the bible then? I have clearly pointed out several portions wherein harm is not only condoned but outright demanded. I have pointed out that Jesus stated that he did not come to destroy the law. Perhaps you adhere to some kind of interpretation where that still means that the law doesn't matter for some reason but even then what of Paul's words on homosexuality and the place of women? He came after Jesus and unless he is an apostate christian what is the defense for him?

What place of woman ? To me, Jesus was Not in favor of fornication for anyone. The 'practice' of homosexuality falls under the category of: fornication. ALL single people are to refrain from fornication ( Greek word Porneia )

Jesus ' fullfilled ' the Law ( Not destroyed it ) - please see Luke 21:22-24; Luke 24:44; Romans 10:4; Romans 3:20
Now, would exist a ' spiritual nation ' ( the Christian congregation ) - 1 Peter 2:9; 1 Peter 2:5; Galatians 4:26

 

[Monk Of Reason]

What place of woman ? To me, Jesus was Not in favor of fornication for anyone. The 'practice' of homosexuality falls under the category of: fornication. ALL single people are to refrain from fornication ( Greek word Porneia )

Jesus ' fullfilled ' the Law ( Not destroyed it ) - please see Luke 21:22-24; Luke 24:44; Romans 10:4; Romans 3:20
Now, would exist a ' spiritual nation ' ( the Christian congregation ) - 1 Peter 2:9; 1 Peter 2:5; Galatians 4:26

Homosexuals have been killed because of those verses. The whole of the west has been anti-homosexual for thousands of years because of those texts. That is direct harm. I don't care if the religion thinks it justified.

You know of Paul's conflicting comments on women. Let us not play games. If you would like I can bring the verses.


As a side note, can you link me to the bible verse that says the old laws no longer matter? Is it just the bit with peter who ate pork after god blessed it?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What does this say about every POTUS in our lifetime leading us into war? All is for world peace, but it does not come. If we kept our swords sheathed, then what happens?

If every person on Earth kept their swords sheathed, to me, then what would happen is: world peace.

Obvious to me, then the words of Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10 are Not being adhered to by both the political and the religious. Religious agenda is often the same as POTUS agenda such as the religious using the pulpit as a recruiting station so parents will sacrifice their young on the Altar of War as if that was the same as the Altar of God.

World peace does Not come because from behind the scenes comes ' woe ' for Earth according to Revelation 12:12

I recall that the Christians people at the time of Luke 21:20-21 (years 66 to 70) left faithless Jerusalem rather than stay and fight. The nations are asked, so to speak, to lay down the sword, and as in the year 70 the faithless people in corrupted Jerusalem chose to fight. If they would have listened to Jesus' instructions and fled Jerusalem they would have been spared. We can't literally leave today, but we can choose sides. Jesus side or Not.
At the time of the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 we as to follow the instructions of Isaiah 26:20.

In our lifetime (near future) we could quite likely hear the powers that be ' they ' be found saying, " Peace and Security " as mentioned at 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, but that is just a precursor to the coming great tribulation before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, being the one who will usher in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill.

 

[psychoslice]

To me, Jesus also did Not find much time for most of those teaching religious teachings of his day. - Matthew 15:9
That did Not mean Jesus hated them, but rather to keep them in check as recorded in Matthew 23 so they would Not take over everything.

To me, Most of today's ' so-called Christianity ' falls into the MANY category of who would come ' in Jesus' name ' but proving false as Jesus said would happen at Matthew 7:21-23.

Yes I agree, but the thing is, everyone believes they are the true church, and they use the same words against each other.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Homosexuals have been killed because of those verses. The whole of the west has been anti-homosexual for thousands of years because of those texts. That is direct harm. I don't care if the religion thinks it justified.
You know of Paul's conflicting comments on women. Let us not play games. If you would like I can bring the verses.
As a side note, can you link me to the bible verse that says the old laws no longer matter? Is it just the bit with peter who ate pork after god blessed it?

Absolutely right, even worse than killed. Bad treatment of anyone is Not justified.
Even if a person thinks a homosexual is to be hated they are dead wrong. They are to love enemies, Not hate.

Back in the 60's there was a homosexual in class. He was pretty much an outcast.
Since he was Not seen making sexual moves on anyone it did Not bother me.
Along with some others I was at times seen in public with him.
It could have been after a football game, a few of us went to a restaurant.
I expected the waitress to give a common hate-filled look.
She definitely did raise an eyebrow, but began to smile and treat all as equals.
We all dipped into our pockets for extra tip change to leave her.

When I seriously began researching the Scriptures, I did Not see hate at 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 A.
Fornication is Not for anyone. ALL of us are to refrain from fornication.
Fornication was also against the old Law, and carried over to be included in the new law.
The 'ceremonial parts' of the old Law are Not practiced because Jesus fulfilled that old Law - Luke 4:21
Jesus replaced the Old with the New commandment of John 13:34-35.

Food does Not commend us to God according to 1 Corinthians 8:8, so Peter needed to grow in his spirituality and Peter did.

I was hoping you would post Paul's conflicting verses, so I'll go with these: 1 Corinthians 14:33-34; 1 Corinthians 14:1-6; 1 Corinthians 14:26-34; 1 Corinthians 14:4-5,12,26; 1 Corinthians 14:40; 1 Corinthians 14:27-28, 30,34.
Keep silent in the meetings, or Don't interrupt the meetings.
That doesn't mean never to speak, but there are times to be silent.
In other words, oversight responsibility was given to the male who qualifies with 1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9.
However, women do serve as an example to the angels - 1 Corinthians 11:10

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes I agree, but the thing is, everyone believes they are the true church, and they use the same words against each other.

To me, why else would a person belong to a religion unless they believed it was the true right one !
The people of Acts of the Apostles 17:11 examined, or researched, the Scriptures daily to see if what they were hearing or learning was really found in Scripture. Many people just follow church traditions, or church customs, as if they are Scripture when Not really found in Scripture.

 

[psychoslice]

To me, why else would a person belong to a religion unless they believed it was the true right one !
The people of Acts of the Apostles 17:11 examined, or researched, the Scriptures daily to see if what they were hearing or learning was really found in Scripture. Many people just follow church traditions, or church customs, as if they are Scripture when Not really found in Scripture.

Yes, but still most believe they are right in their belief, as you do also, this is one reason I left religion.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Absolutely right, even worse than killed. Bad treatment of anyone is Not justified.
Even if a person thinks a homosexual is to be hated they are dead wrong. They are to love enemies, Not hate.

Then why did they stone them to death in the old testament?

When I seriously began researching the Scriptures, I did Not see hate at 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 A.
Fornication is Not for anyone. ALL of us are to refrain from fornication.
Fornication was also against the old Law, and carried over to be included in the new law.
The 'ceremonial parts' of the old Law are Not practiced because Jesus fulfilled that old Law - Luke 4:21
Jesus replaced the Old with the New commandment of John 13:34-35.

I am aware however that was to cover sacrifices not punishments. The law is fulfilled but it is not destroyed. What was wrong then is still wrong now? So why are all followers of god as gods new people allowed to wear mixed fabrics, eat pork or other forbidden things? And if those are gone why is fornication not okay? What is the specified split?

You can say all day long that it was fulfilled but why do you still adhere to some laws but not others? Where did it specify which to leave out?

I was hoping you would post Paul's conflicting verses, so I'll go with these: 1 Corinthians 14:33-34; 1 Corinthians 14:1-6; 1 Corinthians 14:26-34; 1 Corinthians 14:4-5,12,26; 1 Corinthians 14:40; 1 Corinthians 14:27-28, 30,34.
Keep silent in the meetings, or Don't interrupt the meetings.
That doesn't mean never to speak, but there are times to be silent.
In other words, oversight responsibility was given to the male who qualifies with 1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9.
However, women do serve as an example to the angels - 1 Corinthians 11:10

I am aware. However it changes nothing. The extreme interpretation of those verses are not the only criticism. It blatantly describes sexism. Women are to be obedient. Women are not to have authority over men. They are to be gracious and meek like the angels. Or to quote Islam "they are like a box of precious jewels". They are beneath men. So why give them the right to vote or why in the hell would anyone give them the right to be in in a position of political leadership if they believed the bible?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Then why did they stone them to death in the old testament?
I am aware however that was to cover sacrifices not punishments. The law is fulfilled but it is not destroyed. What was wrong then is still wrong now? So why are all followers of god as gods new people allowed to wear mixed fabrics, eat pork or other forbidden things? And if those are gone why is fornication not okay? What is the specified split?
You can say all day long that it was fulfilled but why do you still adhere to some laws but not others? Where did it specify which to leave out?
I am aware. However it changes nothing. The extreme interpretation of those verses are not the only criticism. It blatantly describes sexism. Women are to be obedient. Women are not to have authority over men. They are to be gracious and meek like the angels. Or to quote Islam "they are like a box of precious jewels". They are beneath men. So why give them the right to vote or why in the hell would anyone give them the right to be in in a position of political leadership if they believed the bible?

Aren't ALL to be gracious and meek according to Matthew 5:5 ?

The death penalty was carried out for the practice of immorality in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
The old Law was so that the people of ancient Israel would be separate from surrounding nations.
Often the forbidden things had to do with keeping separate from the religious practices of surrounding nations.
Fornication is Not okay because from the beginning it was a marital arrangement between man and woman.
Genesis 2:24. That standard was set up ' before ' the temporary Constitution of the Mosaic Law began.
To me, Jesus re-established that original Genesis 2:24 position or standard - Matthew 5:32; Matthew 19:9
So, to me, the specified split is that the Mosaic Law was temporary.
The covenant with Noah - Genesis 9 - remains permanent, as does Genesis 2:24
Love others 'more' than self is superior to the old Law - John 13:34-35

What is sexism about Genesis 21:12 B where God tells Abraham to listen to wife Sarah ?
Not to be beneath men, but to me, as a ship only has one Captain the final say belongs to the man.
( that should be ' after ' he first listens to the voice of his wife - Genesis 21:12 B )

There is No political leadership for either men or woman who follow in Jesus' steps.
Jesus declined political leadership at John 6:15 when Jesus fled away from being made a political king on Earth.
Jesus, now as heavenly king of kings, and head of the Christian congregation - Ephesians 5:23 - shows that Christians ( male and female ) have already cast their vote for Jesus as ' political and religious' head ( Commander in Chief - " Hail to the Chief !")