Italian writer against women choosing the bear: hating men has become fashionable

[Estro Felino]

Please stop downplaying and minimizing sexual assault.

Mine was a question: is that sexual assault?
What is that? Sexual harassment?

 

[Estro Felino]

This is exactly why I suggested stopping and listening. If you did, you'd realize this misconstruing of the subject is silly. Being wary of men in general because of a lot of bad experiences with them in the course of your life doesn't mean you hate men or want to be a lesbian. It just means you and other women have had a lot of bad experiences with men.

With all due respect...but I do know a couple of men who have clearly affirmed that they chose a man as life partner because women disappointed them. So it's not uncommon. And mine was a suggestion.

And when you realize that, you can then shift your blame onto the men for creating those bad experiences, rather than blame women for men's bad behavior, as you're doing here.

I was run over by a very uncivilized driver. Zebra crossing.In my university years.
But that bad experience didn't make me assume that all men are "hit-and-run drivers". On the contrary: so many men are excellent, careful and skilled drivers.
This exact thing can be applied to rape.

 

[Magic Man]

With all due respect...but I do know a couple of men who have clearly affirmed that they chose a man as life partner because women disappointed them. So it's not uncommon. And mine was a suggestion.

1) Men don't choose to engage in a romantic/sexual relationship with other men simply because "women disappointed them". They'd also have to be attracted to men in the first place. It could be that the disappointment led them to realize they were bisexual, or that it led them to lean into the bisexuality they already acknowledged.

2) That would still be extremely uncommon, even if it happens. Just because you claim to know two such examples doesn't make it common.

3) Yours was a terrible suggestion based on a complete misunderstanding of the situation, which I already addressed.

I was run over by a very uncivilized driver. Zebra crossing.In my university years.
But that bad experience didn't make me assume that all men are "hit-and-run drivers". On the contrary: so many men are excellent, careful and skilled drivers.
This exact thing can be applied to rape.

How many times have you been hit by a man driving a car? I'm assuming just this once, or at best maybe once or twice aside from this. How many times have others been in that situation? How many times have women had bad experiences with men that involved some sort of sexual assault or harassment?

No one is assuming all men are rapists. What women do is be wary of strange men (and many times men they know) because of how many bad experiences they have with them. That doesn't mean they say all men are bad or rapists or anything. It doesn't mean they hate men. It just means they've learned through experience that caution is the best policy when dealing with strange men.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

The fragile and outraged reactions of some Men to the women which choose 'bear' in that situation is itself a good indicator of why some women would choose bear.

Simply communicating that being stuck with a man they don't know is terrifying is something that they are mocked about, their fears and experiences trivialized, and then they become an object of hatred by hurt men.

Being afraid of men you don't know is not misandry.

Men often mock the experiences and fears of women.

 

[Estro Felino]

How many times have you been hit by a man driving a car? I'm assuming just this once, or at best maybe once or twice aside from this. How many times have others been in that situation? How many times have women had bad experiences with men that involved some sort of sexual assault or harassment?

The problem is that American feminists have a peculiar vision of sexual harassment.
Isn't this sexual harassment according to this definition? What this girl is doing with this Swiss Guard?

No one is assuming all men are rapists.

Potential rapists. That's what feminists claim.

What women do is be wary of strange men (and many times men they know) because of how many bad experiences they have with them. That doesn't mean they say all men are bad or rapists or anything. It doesn't mean they hate men. It just means they've learned through experience that caution is the best policy when dealing with strange men.

It depends on the definition of sexual harassment.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The problem is that American feminists have a peculiar vision of sexual harassment.
Isn't this sexual harassment according to this definition? What this girl is doing with this Swiss Guard?

They don't. You just think they do.

Her behaviour is rather strange to me. Throwing herself at an on-duty guard and grabbing herself and stuff? I wouldn't be too thrilled if a man was doing that in front of me while I was trying to work.

(I'm not entirely sure what's going on though, given that it's in Italian.)

Potential rapists. That's what feminists claim.

It depends on the definition of sexual harassment.

It's like you didn't read anything in the post you were responding to.

 

[Estro Felino]

Her behaviour is rather strange to me. Throwing herself at an on-duty guard and grabbing herself and stuff? I wouldn't be too thrilled if a man was doing that in front of me while I was trying to work.

I think that it's logical what "Selfie in Vaticano" means...right?
The girl makes positive remarks about the Guard's beauty and then she asks him for a selfie together. He won't answer and she makes the selfie anyway...touching him...as you can see.
Isn't that sexual assault?

 

[Magic Man]

The problem is that American feminists have a peculiar vision of sexual harassment.
Isn't this sexual harassment according to this definition? What this girl is doing with this Swiss Guard?

I don't know. I don't feel like watching a weird fictional Italian video. Feminists, American or otherwise, don't have a peculiar view of sexual harassment. You're the one trying to downplay it here.

Potential rapists. That's what feminists claim.

Well, yes, technically they are all potential rapists. And yet that doesn't address what I said. Women aren't saying all men are rapists (as you claim they are saying). They're just wary of men because of the large number of bad interactions men cause for women.

It depends on the definition of sexual harassment.

The standard one. For instance from Wiki:

"Sexual harassment is a type of harassment involving the use of explicit or implicit sexual overtones, including the unwelcome and inappropriate promises of rewards in exchange for sexual favors. Sexual harassment can be physical and/or a demand or request for sexual favors, making sexually colored remarks, showing pornography, and any other unwelcome physical, verbal, or non-verbal conduct of a sexual nature.[1] Sexual harassment includes a range of actions from verbal transgressions to sexual abuse or assault."

 

[Magic Man]

I think that it's logical what "Selfie in Vaticano" means...right?
The girl makes positive remarks about the Guard's beauty and then she asks him for a selfie together. He won't answer and she makes the selfie anyway...touching him...as you can see.
Isn't that sexual assault?

If someone makes unwanted advances toward someone else, especially touching them, that is at least sexual harassment, possibly sexual assault.

 

[Estro Felino]

If someone makes unwanted advances toward someone else, especially touching them, that is at least sexual harassment, possibly sexual assault.

But only if the man does it, right?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think that it's logical what "Selfie in Vaticano" means...right?
The girl makes positive remarks about the Guard's beauty and then she asks him for a selfie together. He won't answer and she makes the selfie anyway...touching him...as you can see.
Isn't that sexual assault?

The guy is on duty and trying to work. She's traipsing around him taunting him and grabbing her breasts. I'd say that sexual harrassment.
The guy apparently can't do anything about it, since he appears to be on duty.
Leave him alone.

 

[SkepticThinker]

But only if the man does it, right?

ANYBODY.

 

[Estro Felino]

ANYBODY.

Thank you for clarifying.
But then I need to disclose to you that numerous Italian females have that kind of behavior with the guys they are into.

 

[Magic Man]

But only if the man does it, right?

Did you see "man" in that quote? Stop trying to start silly arguments and start addressing comments in good faith.

 

[Magic Man]

Thank you for clarifying.
But then I need to disclose to you that numerous Italian females have that kind of behavior with the guys they are into.

That's great. It doesn't change the fact that women deal with sexual harassment/assault from men on a daily basis (or at least near daily).

Then there's the fact that men don't have to put up with this type of behavior nearly as often. Along with the fact that when women do it to men, while still wrong, the effect is different, because there is rarely an implied physical threat. The average man is physically more powerful than the average woman. Men tend to get angry when their advances are spurned, and so women have to deal with the implication that when they are harassed, it could turn violent.

 

[Kfox]

Let's look at some stupid bigoted stats:

Offensive attacks are very rare and include all of the killings by black bears. These are generally unprovoked predatory attacks in remote areas where bears have the least contact with people. Bears that visit campgrounds, bird feeders, and garbage cans almost never kill people, even though these bears have by far the most contact with people. The 750,000 black bears of North America kill less than one person per year on the average, while men ages 18-24 are 167 times more likely to kill someone than a black bear.​

How many women come in contact with those 750,000 bears in North America on a daily basis? How many women come in contact with the millions of men on a daily basis in North America? Your argument fails, because you've gotta be a special kinda stupid to believe a woman is going to feel safer around a wild bear in a public place than another human being in a public place; even if that human being is male.

 

[Kfox]

I've personally had four different men not stop when I've said stop. I daresay I'm not the only woman to experience this and I daresay this may have something to do with this thought experiment.

How many bears have you come in contact in your lifetime? How many men have you come in contact in your lifetime?

I provided a list of reasons earlier in the thread. You think those are stupid reasons? ReallY?

What post number did you do this?

Look at what you just did there. I asked you to listen and pay closer attention to what we're trying to say. Us women get the chance to share our fears via this thought experiment, and what we do get in response?

"You're stupid."
"You're a bigot."
"You're a liar."

I've seen a brown bear in a public park once, and everybody was freaking out, women included. Women do not react with that kind of fear with men they do not know in public places.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

When guys don't honor their partner saying "Stop"
this is typically an intimate situation. I say that it
doesn't apply to a woman who happens upon a
random guy in the woods hiking, hunting, gathering,
or just enjoying nature.
I've had women hit me, defraud me, rob me, &
perpetrate other awful things. Yet I don't worry
about it happening when I meet a female fellow hiker
in the woods. I've also had guys assault me....but
never in the woods.
The most dangerous animal I ever met (Mrs Revolt
was with me) was a bison.....we encountered many
in our path. We were very very careful to avoid them.
And yet.....no bison had ever attacked us before.
Thoughtful judgement is most useful.

Humans can be quite dangerous.

 

[Kfox]

A male doesn't identify as a woman. You're not making sense here. If you're trying to talk about trans women, then do that.

Dictionary.com does not agree with you. There are biological males who identify as women; they're called trans women.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

If you'd care to restate this so it makes sense, I'd be happy to engage with it.

If women really saw men as more of a threat than bears, they would avoid men more so than they avoid bears. the fact they do not, proves my point.

It depends on a lot of things. The first thing is that women don't assume all men are dangerous.

But they do assume all bears are dangerous;

They just don't assume that every strange man they meet is safe.

then why don't they stay away from men the way they stay away from bears?

Second, why only Black men?

To make a point. Racial bigotry against black men is not acceptable the way gender bigotry is acceptable against men. The way I see it, bigotry is bigotry, and I call it out when I see it.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

The fragile and outraged reactions of some Men to the women which choose 'bear' in that situation is itself a good indicator of why some women would choose bear.

Simply communicating that being stuck with a man they don't know is terrifying is something that they are mocked about, their fears and experiences trivialized, and then they become an object of hatred by hurt men.

Being afraid of men you don't know is not misandry.

Male fragility and male defensiveness have a lot in common with white fragility and white defensiveness, it seems.

Maybe it is time for men to stop treating women like the enemy.